Will we need a universal basic income in the future? (good, school)

[jobaba]

Originally Posted by s1alker

The low wage employers would be forced to pay better wages or automate where they can. Why get out of bed for starvation wages when you can live off of UBI.

Well, if it is extra income and part time, there might be people who would still do it.

I forgot to account for the fact that whatever you're making would be EXTRA income on top of UBI.

That's what I assume. We all get the UBI, but you can work if you want still, all extra goes in your pocket.

I do think it makes sense.

[MLSFan]

again, if everyone has it, it net zero difference once everything else increases in price

people think if ubi was $1000 and their rent was $1000, they get free rent. then landlord increases it to $1200, they are $200 short. but $200 is better than working for $1000 for rent right? now add in the increased food cost and other living expenses, and you are working the same number of hours as before, except the dollar amount is different.

rent increases because there is someone willing to pay the increased price. if you had an extra ubi money, you would use it for rent. so would the next person but maybe a little more of the ubi, and so on and upward, until they runout of their share of ubi money. then someone works 10 hours, then 20 hours, and 40 hours. then they find a job that pays them more

in the end, ubi cant beat inflation

[HomelessLoser]

Originally Posted by oceangaia

No, that's the whole point of YOUR VERSION of it.

No, not my version -- I don't know where you're getting your definition of UBI from but that's what it means...like "free speech" isn't just for speech you approve of, UBI payments isn't just for people or people exhibiting behavior that you approve of.

It's a right (is the idea).

Originally Posted by oceangaia

Everything has requirements.

Well, one has to be alive, yes, and of the age of majority, generally, and a citizen, usually....

Originally Posted by oceangaia

The "terms" would be the same for all.

LOL -- you say that immediately after me quoting Animal Farm's "all animals are equal -- but some are more equal than others"....

Originally Posted by oceangaia

Wait, you want UBI because there isn't enough work to do for people and you're complaining because this would provide work to do for the people?

Because, as I've also mentioned, of the costs involved: you start adding administrative layers and you're adding costs...right back where you started!

Originally Posted by oceangaia

Why wouldn't this administrative layer be covered by this community service requirement?

Ah, so I'll make sure you are doing "community service" and you make sure I'm doing "community service"...yeah, that'll work real fine!

Originally Posted by oceangaia

Better yet, since you're saying the everything will be automated, why wouldn't this be automated?

Perhaps it can be -- but 1) it'll still require maintenance and thus another layer of community service admin and 2) it goes against the very principle of UBI.

Originally Posted by oceangaia

These programs already exist.

Q.E.D. -- my point exactly: you're right back where you started!

And no, actually, the scale involved in your community service idea would totally be unlike what's currently existing (IOW, even more of a boondoggle).

Originally Posted by oceangaia

You select from a slate of options.

And one of those options is UBI that's truly universal and a right, not a privilege, getting rid of those "programs [that] already exist."

Originally Posted by oceangaia

No, it distorts YOUR INTENTION of it.

Um...are you redefining words in order to disseminate disinformation and sow confusion -- F.U.D.??

Like redefining "racism" so that black people can't be racist since "racism" means having sufficient power as a class in society....

Honestly, are you just arguing for the sake of being contrarian here?

What would UBI lose by not having a community service component such as you describe??

Originally Posted by oceangaia

Probably more than you

You either do or you don't -- it isn't relative to me or anyone else; either you've actually run organizations (as in daily operations involving more than fifty people, say) or you haven't.

Originally Posted by oceangaia

but what you keep overlooking is we would have a huge labor resource to cover the work and you already have these costs.

The work will be automated, remember?

Also, what kind of "community service" is enforced? It's like patriotism at the point of a gun -- for example, we recite the Pledge of Allegiance (or stand for the national anthem, for that matter [and I'm anti-Black Lives Matter, just as an FYI, though I respect the right to protest in most if not all its non-violent forms]) most meaningfully when we do it out of our own free accord.

Originally Posted by oceangaia

You're whining about the costs involved in getting work in return for paying people but you're blind to the costs in getting nothing in return for paying people.

Why do you think UBI is "getting nothing in return" when there are:

1) Cost Savings in terms of the present mish-mash of administrative overhead involved in various social programs (not simply "welfare" but also small businesses dealing with Unemployment Insurance, Workmen's Compensation, employee health benefits, lawsuits over unfair dismissals [since most people would just leave if not worried about meeting basic living expense bills], etc.).

2) Economic Stimulation due to people migrating to cheaper and less economically developed/happening locales now that they've got their UBI and aren't literally chained to a big city's job market.

3) Economic Stimulation in the form of people starting new businesses, creating art, and not stealing and cheating (as much, anyway).

4) Economic Stimulation in the form of greater productivity since folks are doing what they actually want to do and therefore will be more competent.

5) Economic Stimulation in the form of people actually being able to call out sick and no worry about losing vital income so that they can recuperate or visit a doctor and not spread disease around.

6) Economic Stimulation in the form of all-around mental health when basic survival pressures are relieved and even removed altogether, resulting in less violence and the culture of violence that leads to generational traumas and the resulting neuroses and psychoses.

7) Economic Stimulation in the form of physically healthier people thanks to the resulting lack of companies to strictly adhere to the proverbial Bottom Line and thus cutting corners and even engaging in dangerous practices from dumping to unsafe consumer product ingredients.

And that's just off the top of my head -- I am sure scholars have it all better worded and organized and even more benefits than that paltry list.

Originally Posted by oceangaia

And I don't think you understand the practical implications of what you propose at all.

Ah, okay, just copy-n-paste what I said right back at me....

I've just laid out why your community service requirement is impractical. Now why's UBI as-is (without your addition of "community service") impractical to you?

[HomelessLoser]

Originally Posted by oceangaia

So UBI also means Universal Health Care.

No -- "basic living expenses" are covered, the point of UBI.

People will be able to afford healthcare.

[HomelessLoser]

Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy

UBI would probably be implemented after Universal Health Care was already a thing.

This is possible -- even probable -- but ideally UBI would "be true" and totally replace the mish-mash of social programs (don't forget that social programs evolved to deal with all the gaps in social welfare that were being recognized as people became more enlightened as to social realities).

Remember, UBI is supposed to replace basic living expenses...healthcare is certainly a vital basic living expense (even though currently many if not most folks in the U.S. can't afford it).

[HomelessLoser]

Originally Posted by jobaba

Probably wouldn't work for society because nobody would want to perform any of the lower paying jobs that are critical for society to function.

1) Such as?? Remember, UBI's just beginning to be so seriously considered now even by some elites precisely because of oncoming automation, which automation would mostly begin with lower-paying jobs.

2) Young and old folks in particular generally don't mind terribly the kinds of jobs that are lower-paying (janitorial, what have you)...it's when one's living depends on them that they become terrible.

Originally Posted by jobaba

As a matter of fact, the lower paying jobs are typically more critical than the higher paying ones.

Which ones?

Originally Posted by jobaba

Regardless, it would help me and I'd be all for it.

And not just you but literally everyone in almost every way, even with mental and physical health!!

[MLSFan]

Perhaps it can be -- but 1) it'll still require maintenance and thus another layer of community service admin and 2) it goes against the very principle of UBI.

no it doesn't, you seem to think "rights" have no restrictions...

everything has a restriction, even if UBI is only in place if you keep voting for the party that supports it. As soon as you vote against them, you lose the UBI when they change the laws

the right to free speech, is monitored by laws and enforced by police, you can not say whatever you want without consequences

UBI could "ensure" people have food and housing, by requiring you spend 40% on housing and 30% on food, then 15% on taxes, 20% on living needs, and 5% on "fun" things. But to afford those things, you have to live in X area and buy Y food items. XYZ being govt provided/sponsored, IE back to the old soviet era living conditions

financial "freedom" = you are rich enough to not rely on someone setting rules on when/what/how you get your money... relying on govt to provide money is not freedom

[oceangaia]

Originally Posted by HomelessLoser

I've just laid out why your community service requirement is impractical. Now why's UBI as-is (without your addition of "community service") impractical to you?

I started off in support of UBI and your fanaticism is turning me against it. With supporters like you, rest assured UBI will never happen. You've fixated on a specific implementation and any modification to it sets you off on a long-winded tirade dissecting posts sentence by sentence. Get a job.

[HomelessLoser]

Originally Posted by oceangaia

I started off in support of UBI and your fanaticism is turning me against it. With supporters like you, rest assured UBI will never happen. You've fixated on a specific implementation and any modification to it sets you off on a long-winded tirade dissecting posts sentence by sentence. Get a job.

"Fanaticism"..."long-winded tirade"..."dissecting sentence by sentence"....

Okay, sorry I mistook you for a serious conversationalist who's interested in details.

You keep on posting whatever you want (including, probably, throwing "and you keep posting whatever you want" right back at me) -- I won't discuss anything with you anymore.

[oceangaia]

You picked a very fitting user name...