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What would I, or anyone, lose? That very income that is being touted as the great hope. How long, exactly, do you think folks would continue working hard ("curious" or not) only to have their money taken from them to fund someone else's dream. It doesn't work that way.
Indeed, that's not how UBI works at all -- money isn't taken from you to "fund someone else's dream"...YOU ALSO get UBI; everyone does; hence the "u" in "UBI" -- universal.
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Originally Posted by ringwise
For the record, I fully understand the concept.
I only wish you did, but you proved above that you didn't (hopefully you do now).
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Originally Posted by ringwise
I don't think you fully understand human nature.
I'm not sure about "fully" but I understand enough to know that UBI would best allow people to explore and actually achieve their potential.
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Originally Posted by ringwise
PS: the point of government is NOT to fund freedom.
Your freedoms are only because of government -- in a state of nature, it's war of all against all, as Hobbes had observed.
Indeed, that's not how UBI works at all -- money isn't taken from you to "fund someone else's dream"...YOU ALSO get UBI; everyone does; hence the "u" in "UBI" -- universal.
again, where is this coming from? you can not borrow money if no one lends it, you can not give something you do not have. if it isnt tax money nor borrowed money, where is it coming from?
I don't think work means what you think it means. If that "work" is worth something, then money will be exchanged for that work. What you're describing is a hobby or passion.
Many, many businesses have come about as a result of a "mere" hobby.
That's not to say that only "hobbies" will produce extra income under UBI -- indeed, in the short to immediate-term, there will still be a need for cops, firefighters, lawyers, etc.
Ultimately, of course, UBI is just a transitional vehicle towards a wholly money-less society such as envisioned in Star Trek where total automation means machines do everything,* producing everything, freeing up everyone to, uh, "boldly go where no one has gone before"....
But that's at least a hundred years off -- for the beginning stages of UBI, many present occupations will still exist such that extra income above UBI can and will be earned.
I mean, we'd still need to pay our politicians, after all! ;-)
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Originally Posted by ringwise
While that can be, on occasion, turn into a paying job, it usually doesn't. Because only YOU find it meaningful. I would be more than irate to have my money taken so someone could sit around playing video games all day.
Again, "your money" isn't being taken "so someone could sit around playing video games all day" -- at least not anymore than your money is already being taken in the form of taxes so that politicos like Trump can charge the Secret Service thousands for having to use Trump's own personal properties....
You're going to be taxed anyway -- better that the taxes go towards people, however fallible,** than corporations...know what I mean?
And there will still be many jobs under UBI; it's just that with increasing automation, "traditional mass market jobs" will become ever scarcer....
* A more interesting critique of UBI in the long-term would be skepticism at the level of General A.I. achievement necessary that, being at least as intelligent as a human being, would not complain at having to perform mundane tasks!
** Another interesting critique of UBI in the short-term would be whether such "freeloaders" would overwhelm the system or whether (and how) they could be contained or even eliminated.
Indeed, that's not how UBI works at all -- money isn't taken from you to "fund someone else's dream"...YOU ALSO get UBI; everyone does; hence the "u" in "UBI" -- universal.
I only wish you did, but you proved above that you didn't (hopefully you do now).
I'm not sure about "fully" but I understand enough to know that UBI would best allow people to explore and actually achieve their potential.
Your freedoms are only because of government -- in a state of nature, it's war of all against all, as Hobbes had observed.
Your freedoms are DESPITE gov't. The gov't doesn't exist to grant you freedom. Unless you believe the entire human race is inherently born as slaves into a pre-existing system of slavery and is just waiting for "gov't" to come rescue them. Gov't is what CREATES SLAVES.
And why would the gov't take money from me just to give it back? That makes no sense. Unless it is to encourage people not to work. Why would I work and then have them take money from me just to give it back? I'd rather NOT work and then just get it, which will be the sheeple mentality which will lead to very few working and no one to pay for it.
Everyone will because UBI wont preclude you from working more and making more. Most run of the mill middle class wont see really any tax changes, the tax changes will be at the corporate level at rates of 90% or more to fund UBI (if they don't reinvest in the company beyond a certain dollar amount in profits).
So a company can either specifically create jobs through the reinvestment (also the quality of those jobs would have to be specified) and the rest would go to fund UBI, it would be a delicate balance to ensure UBI is funded and that companies can still reinvest.
It does work because the USA actually did this back in the mid to late 40's and 50's. Corporate tax rates were 90% if they did not reinvest and so they did. The USA also did not have free trade and rampant immigration (unless you were truly someone, like a rocket scientist, etc). We have already demonstrated that it works. The only issue is the greedy, corrupt and immoral are running the govt.
Indeed -- and just taxing a mere penny on all stock market transactions would bring in at least a hundred million dollars a day: consider that even five billion trades on Wall Street would be considered slow, and that daily volume is between eight and twelve billion...a penny tax on each trade would fund a lot right there (maybe not necessarily UBI but certainly schools, etc.)!
Your freedoms are DESPITE gov't. The gov't doesn't exist to grant you freedom. Unless you believe the entire human race is inherently born as slaves into a pre-existing system of slavery and is just waiting for "gov't" to come rescue them. Gov't is what CREATES SLAVES.
And why would the gov't take money from me just to give it back? That makes no sense. Unless it is to encourage people not to work. Why would I work and then have them take money from me just to give it back? I'd rather NOT work and then just get it, which will be the sheeple mentality which will lead to very few working and no one to pay for it.
Are you on welfare and subsisting at the poverty level now? No? Then why would you be with UBI? Why do you work now so the government can take your money and fund public services, the military, trips to the Maralago, Medicaid, and social services when you have the option to stay home and collect welfare? It’s because you don’t want to live in some crappy section 8 apartment and subsist on food stamps. The UBI program would eliminate those social programs and instead spread the “wealth” around.
As far as the government enslaving you, I assume you are okay with driving a regulated car with mandated safety features on government-maintained roads, taking books out of the government-paid-for library, eating foods that are safe thanks to government regulations, seeing medical professionals who the darn government insists complete a certain amount of higher education, being entitled to protection in public and at work, etc, etc, etc. You might not think you’re not dependent on the government keeping you safe, but you’d be wrong.
entropy says energy is lost as heat when work is done...
govt says that money is lost when work is done, you will never get back as much money as you pay in taxes because of administrative costs
if you want a moneyless society, you mean to say tou want someone to provide you with everything from craddle to grave, what motivation do you have to be creative when everything is done for you?
innovation and creativity happen when you try to fix things that dont work for you, "work" as in you were doing it and didnt like the process
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