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The level of profit earned by the company is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Whether they can or can't pay more is completely irrelevant. The only relevance is the value of the job. And that value is determined by the market - not by you or any other collectivist.
There is no exploitation going on.
Exactly. A company offers a job because they have some work to be done. They decide what that work is worth to them and offer an amount of pay. Now others get to decide if they agree with that valuation or not. A person that disagrees can choose to pass. If no one agrees and takes the job, the company will have to either increase their valuation or let the job go undone. A person that takes the job is agreeing with the valuation.
The valuation of the job is determined by mutual agreement of the employer and employee - what the employer is willing to pay to get a job done, and what an employee is willing to accept to do the job. It is not determined by how many kids the employee has, how many health problems and expensive prescriptions the employee has, how many bills and debts the employee has, or any other "needs" of the employee.
It is the ONLY moral mechanism for determining the value of work.
False. It is, explicitly, amoral. Advocating its exclusive use for determining the value of work is explicitly immoral.
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
One's cost of living is irrelevant to the value of a job.
The prevailing cost of living of society is the most important consideration vis a vis the minimum acceptable valuation of work within that society.
Again, the entirety of the world has agreed to this, in principle. It's a shame that you, personally, cannot even abide the concept in principle.
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
When the Universal Declaration of Human Rights becomes the law of the land in the US, it will then be something to concern ourselves with. Until then, it is irrelevant.
False. Standards of morality will always be relevant to matters of morality. You're fixated on market financial considerations as if money is the only thing that is worthy of consideration. Money is a petty consideration, by comparison to the worth and dignity of human beings, and hiding behind it is a rationalization for immoral advocacy of self-serving arguments in favor of callousness and avarice.
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
Have fun with your moral principles.
It isn't a matter of "having fun". It is a matter of highlighting the disreputable nature of what you advocate, so that fewer people follow your lead into immoral advocacy.
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
Do you really think that trying to scold me will change anything?
If you think the two partisans in any debate are ever going to prompt the other to set aside what they believe in favor of what the other advocates then you don't know anything about how such interchanges work. This isn't about getting you to engage in less immoral advocacy or even to get you to behave in an amoral manner less often; it is about trying to contain the damage you do with your immoral advocacy and your amoral behavior, limit it to you and as few others as possible, and prompt people of conscience to see beyond the vapid nature of such self-serving perspectives and to engage in more humane and responsible consideration of the issues.
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
I haven't denied any realities.
Of course you have and I have pointed out specifically which ones. Now you're just posting empty denials.
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Originally Posted by oceangaia
Exactly. A company offers a job because they have some work to be done.
No one is saying that companies should unilaterally do anything other than act in an amoral manner. To the extent TaxPhd has confused you such that you think that that is the matter at hand, know that it is not the matter at hand. The matter at hand is the extent to which society is responsible for ensuring that that amoral behavior does not prevail in a society that claims itself to be moral. Society - every single one of us, including you and TaxPhd, despite the denials - is morally obligated to take action against the conditions that allow such amoral behave to stand as the default.
Disney is known world-wide for low pay and their terrible treatment of contract workers,which is what most of the non-cast members are, and even cast members are paid lower than average for the industry. I worked for Disney in CA for six months as a contractor. It sucked out loud, except for the cafeteria, which was outstanding.
Yet this does not answer the demands of the general public who want low prices on items. If the enterprise can't sell it's items at such a price that provides said benefits you demand they do, then what's the answer?
If a worker is desperate for work, haven't they done this to themselves for lack of education chances passed up on and an unwillingness to sacrifice now for their better future? Or, are they either older and more experienced and thus worth more, but the employer doesn't want to pay their demands and wants the younger and more ignorant newbie?
The double standard rears itself when an individual bites of more than he can chew... he gets criticized for not planning ahead, being smarter, not saving money, etc. However, when a business runs into problems they're allowed to blame increase in wages, increases in costs, gas, how they can only make do if workers are paid the absolute minimum required by law. We expect people to be responsible for their own finances. Why can't we expect businesses and companies to be responsible for their own finances too?
If an individual can't support his current lifestyle, then he needs to make changes. If a business skates on that thin line, and something goes wrong, THEY TOO need to make changes. Otherwise, close down shop because what it really means for them is they too weren't successful.
The double standard rears itself when an individual bites of more than he can chew... he gets criticized for not planning ahead, being smarter, not saving money, etc. However, when a business runs into problems they're allowed to blame increase in wages, increases in costs, gas, how they can only make do if workers are paid the absolute minimum required by law. We expect people to be responsible for their own finances. Why can't we expect businesses and companies to be responsible for their own finances too?
There’s no double standard. Individuals blame anything and everything for their lack of success. CD is full of such threads.
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If an individual can't support his current lifestyle, then he needs to make changes. If a business skates on that thin line, and something goes wrong, THEY TOO need to make changes. Otherwise, close down shop because what it really means for them is they too weren't successful.
Businesses do make changes. Every day. Why would you believe otherwise?
Including changes in response to expectations placed on businesses by society. Unsafe working conditions used to be the norm. Poverty wages used to be much more prevalent. Slowly but surely, as society "bends toward justice", over the long-term industry has bent toward increasing fairness toward employees, even though some would like to blind themselves to that reality.
Why can't we expect businesses and companies to be responsible for their own finances too?
Well, that's not a clear description of the problem. Businesses capitalize on the good offices, processes, and systems set up by, maintained by, monitored by, kept fair by, and defended by society. The question you're raising is to what extent providing this succor to businesses provides a "Return on Investment" to society. Being able to regularly and continually prove that there is such ROI to society is critical, since it is what justifies capitalism over socialism. And it shouldn't surprise anyone that the balance struck has to be regularly adjusted to ensure that that ROI keeps flowing in.
There have been some troubling examples provided over the years that have called that ROI into question. The most well-known is the 2014 report from Americans for Tax Fairness which pegged the cost to society of Walmart's systematic practice of paying its low-wage workers grievously less than what is necessary to pay their own way and secure their own future. Their exploitation of the desperation of workers who don't have any better opportunities available to them in the moment costs society over $6 Billion a year, as society has to therefore make up for the gap between what Walmart pays these employees and how much it costs to keep them and their families from dying of starvation, sickness, or exposure. Another notable example was McDonald's 2013 attempt to rationalize how grievously inadequate their pay is by providing low-wage workers a sample monthly budget that, among other things, told them to allocate $20 a month for health insurance when McDonald's took $14 a week out of their pay for it.
There’s no double standard. Individuals blame anything and everything for their lack of success. CD is full of such threads.
Businesses do make changes. Every day. Why would you believe otherwise?
Businesses have blamed politics for their failures. Businesses make up excuses for their own shortcomings, lack of planning, and lack of desire to change.
Why would you believe that individuals blame anything and everything for their lack of success, wrongly so, but businesses are in the right to do the very same thing?
Businesses have blamed politics for their failures. Businesses make up excuses for their own shortcomings, lack of planning, and lack of desire to change.
Why would you believe that individuals blame anything and everything for their lack of success, wrongly so, but businesses are in the right to do the very same thing?
You hold individuals responsible for not taking responsibility for their own choices and failures. You seem to refuse to acknowledge that businesses can do no wrong. That's a double standard.
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