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You are leaving out the third option, that everyone gets the skills, but there are only so many skilled jobs, people still want their groceries and fast food, so whoever can't get the skilled slots that fill up get stuck having to flip burgers or Huck groceries even though they have the skills for more
Are you claiming that that is reality or a possibility?
I guarentee it wasn’t nothing. They had access to education, roads, running water, the right mentors and all sorts of tangible and intangible things.
Such a discussion presupposes that citizens of the US have access to the existing infrastructure. The “started with nothing” is simply a recognition that many don’t have the benefit of family/money/social status, etc. yet still achieve great success. Arguing against that reality is simply ignorant.
I feel myself personally am finally paid fairly for my skills and knowledge, but it took a long time and changing jobs several times (including 3 in the last 6 months) to get to where I am pay-wise now.
Wait until the creases in your face become a consideration.
Among those folks with whom I was networking during my recent job search, most of us 55 and older have found that we have had to be very creative to make compelling to hiring managers our reasons for accepting a salary much lower than we've been paid in the past, as some of them (who evidently are clueless about how wage-challenged older workers seeking employment are*) would otherwise be reluctant to consider us for fear we'd soon jump to another job closer to our former salary.
Society is under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to provide opportunities.
Society is under a moral obligation to ensure that there are sufficient and sufficiently adequate opportunities for workers to pay their own way and secure their own futures. As I've said previously, edicts such as what you posted are devoid of moral substance. I've posted the moral substance underlying my statements earlier in the thread. All you and those who agree with you have done is posted vapid, amoral refusals to acknowledge moral standards which are well-established as those on which society has been built.
Society is under a moral obligation to ensure that there are sufficient and sufficiently adequate opportunities for workers to pay their own way and secure their own futures.
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
There are too many successful entrepreneurs that started with nothing to believe your false narrative.
Despite your baseless claim, there is not an unlimited capacity within the economy for people to start new businesses.
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Originally Posted by Hemlock140
Yes, opportunity is simply that something is possible.
Well put. Possible, but there is not enough of the kind of opportunity TaxPhd proffered to fulfill the requirement.
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Originally Posted by Hemlock140
There have never been and never will be enough jobs paying middle class or above wages for everyone. There will always be many unskilled jobs that anyone can do, and the value of that work does not justify the same pay as for those requiring the knowledge, skills and abilities that are rewarded by higher pay.
Correct. Those with more skills surely should be able to afford more luxuries than those with less skills. But everyone is innately deserving of the basic dignity due all human beings, that of having the opportunity to work such that they are able to pay their own way and secure their own future. Not buying Teslas, but putting food on the table, having a safe and healthy place to live, etc.
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Originally Posted by TaxPhd
Seems pretty simple. Why do so many not get it?
Because they understand morality and recognize that what you're suggesting as "getting it" is immoral, putting aside what's moral in favor of what's amoral rationalization for what perhaps might unjustly favor you personally.
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Originally Posted by ajams22
I wish I could rep you more than once. Especially for the bolded part of your response. I wish people were able to understand this, even in the most basic sense. The opportunities and privileges you have been presented does not mean everyone else gets the same!
I'm not sure if it is encouraging or discouraging, but I don't believe for a minute that these other people don't actually understand - I think they understand just fine, but refuse to acknowledge that they do, as a means of defending the amoral perspective that they prefer.
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Cravings
You resent the idea of people having to put effort into it.
False. You seem to now be vapidly grasping at straws, just to have something to say in response to moral statements for which you have no legitimate response.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd
Are you claiming that that is reality or a possibility?
That would be an inevitable reality if EVERYONE got skilled. There wouldn't be enough jobs for all of them, and the low wage unskilled jobs would still need workers unless people would start growing their own food in this scenario because no one would work in grocery stores or food service anymore....
And they wouldn't be any better off working anywhere else...
If they had the drive to make more, they would have learned to do something to get paid more
It's not always as easy as people make it. If you are barely making to survive (or not making enough), where are you going to get the money to go back to school (or the time for that matter since that means working even less).
This is like health care in that most of the civilized world is a lot more humane about it in that the rest of the world has subsidies to help people actually "learn to do something to get paid more" without starving to death or becoming homeless.
I have seen on C-D many smug people who think like you who lost their own good job/career and were surprised to find a year or more went by without and equivalent job, essentially forcing them into jobs like this and they really "changed their tune" on this issue.
Yes, opportunity is simply that something is possible. Therefore, if some people are able to do it, the opportunity exists. There are countless stories of people who started with nothing and became very successful entrepreneurs, and others who overcame a family history of poverty to have successful careers.
It's only limited by one's ambition, desire, and self discipline. There have never been and never will be enough jobs paying middle class or above wages for everyone. There will always be many unskilled jobs that anyone can do, and the value of that work does not justify the same pay as for those requiring the knowledge, skills and abilities that are rewarded by higher pay. Start paying the people at Disney collecting tickets, sweeping up, or selling snacks $25/hour and they would have to charge so much more for admission that people would stop going there. They are in business to make money.
Just because here is opportunity is possible and some people can do it does not prove anyone can do it. You are right there are plenty of stories about people who started with nothing and became successful but there are also lots of stories who started with nothing and still have nothing. It is also limited by IQ, what parents you had, what kind of school you go to, your environment but of course you do not want to mention that because then you would have to admit you did not become successful all by yourself. Who is saying these jobs should be payed as much as jobs that require knowledge,skills and abilities just enough that they can have enough for food, shelter, transportation. With how much Disney parks charge I am pretty sure they could afford to pay their employees more without charging much more if anything.
Society is under a moral obligation to ensure that there are sufficient and sufficiently adequate opportunities for workers to pay their own way and secure their own futures. As I've said previously, edicts such as what you posted are devoid of moral substance. I've posted the moral substance underlying my statements earlier in the thread. All you and those who agree with you have done is posted vapid, amoral refusals to acknowledge moral standards which are well-established as those on which society has been built.
Expecting that society does (or should) conform to your moral code is the height of arrogance. But, hey, I’ll play your game. If society is obligated to provide opportunities, how does one get satisfaction for a lack of opportunity? To whom should they go for a redress of grievances? What law(s) will give them satisfaction?
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Society is under a moral obligation to ensure that there are sufficient and sufficiently adequate opportunities for workers to pay their own way and secure their own futures.
Simply repeating yourself doesn’t bolster your claim.
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Despite your baseless claim, there is not an unlimited capacity within the economy for people to start new businesses.
Everyday, entrepreneurs show how wrong you are.
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Correct. Those with more skills surely should be able to afford more luxuries than those with less skills. But everyone is innately deserving of the basic dignity due all human beings, that of having the opportunity to work such that they are able to pay their own way and secure their own future. Not buying Teslas, but putting food on the table, having a safe and healthy place to live, etc.
Everyone is innately deserving of that which they are able to acheive. For some, that is lavish luxury. For others, it is a minimum wage existence. And for all your claims of a “moral” framework for this discussion, it is the height of immorality to extract wealth from those that have produced it, to give it to those that haven’t.
That would be an inevitable reality if EVERYONE got skilled. There wouldn't be enough jobs for all of them, and the low wage unskilled jobs would still need workers unless people would start growing their own food in this scenario because no one would work in grocery stores or food service anymore....
But that’s neither reality, nor a possibility, correct?
It is distinctly a possibility that people can be skilled and qualified for jobs but can't actually get them because someone else has them.
America is nowhere close to that. There are millions of unfilled jobs.
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