Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think the suggestion is is that if you are so down on your luck that you have to move to another area to "make it", that you should sell everything you own except for a few pairs of clothes so you can travel light to the new city, and then worry about re-aquiring things again
True but that was not the one poster stated. Granted this was at least two years ago.
(And this is not specific to Christianity; I'm sure someone could come up with analogs with regard to other belief systems that espouse things similar ...
What are you quoting scripture to an atheist for?
Are you an atheist? Or are you anti-moral?
Roughly half of the members of my congregation self-identify as atheist. Unsurprisingly, they don't have a problem acknowledging the moral basis of our society.
Choose a widely-recognized foundation of moral beliefs and values; I'll find at least one analog for you in that belief system. Or let us know that instead of a moral belief system, you "believe" only in your personal self-interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
I am talking supply and demand and you want to walk the garden path.
What I'm making clear to you is that you should be talking about what I'm talking about: The basis of public policy. Instead, you're working very hard to defend a perspective completely devoid of any socially-redeeming value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
Nobody is physically chained to any job.
No one said anyone was physically chained to a job. You are yet again arguing against something I didn't say in an attempt to evade having to respond to what I actually am saying to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
Nor is any employer obliged to provide everything all employees desire
No one said employer obliged to provide everything all employees desire. You are yet again arguing against something I didn't say in an attempt to evade having to respond to what I actually am saying to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
Companies/corporations have to stay in business otherwise there would be no jobs.
No one said companies shouldn't be able to stay in business. You are yet again arguing against something I didn't say in an attempt to evade having to respond to what I actually am saying to you.
You've posted three more evasions, all in one paragraph.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
If this has so little impact; why does the left always want more?
Go ask the left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
This is where you take your definition too far. Liberty and justice for all does not apply to the whole world.
I didn't say it applies to the whole world. You are yet again arguing against something I didn't say in an attempt to evade having to respond to what I actually am saying to you.
Stop arguing with me about things I haven't said. It just underscores that you have no legitimate response to what I've said to you.
So what are examples of how live your life of economic morality?
What should people of conscience do to live out the moral values I've outlined? Support what I've already outlined; support it with word and deed: Stop denying the reality of poverty, wage slavery, and underemployment that other people endure, because you fear that acknowledging those realities may result in less luxury for you. Hold our society to account for the failures that I've discussed; promote efforts that seek to ensure that everyone has opportunities that allow them to afford to pay their own and secure their own future - all at the same time rather than as a zero-sum game. Actively confront the perversely self-ratified and self-centered self-interest. Highlight the immorality of seeing society only in terms of dollars, and insist that society values people more than money. Work toward changes that will reverse some of these failings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia
So you're reduced to quibbling over providing the means or the opportunity?
There is nothing "reduced" about society's responsibility to its members. There is nothing "reduced" about the obligation to provide the opportunity for every worker to be able to pay their own way and secure their own future. There is nothing "reduced" about highlighting the moral inadequacy of hiding behind one's privileges of birth and luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia
Guess what, society already provides everyone the opportunity.
False. Again, it is easy to dispense with concern about such things when you have been blessed, as you and I evidently have, with privileges of birth and luck, but immoral to do so.
What should people of conscience do to live out the moral values I've outlined? Support what I've already outlined; support it with word and deed: Stop denying the reality of poverty, wage slavery, and underemployment that other people endure, because you fear that acknowledging those realities may result in less luxury for you. Hold our society to account for the failures that I've discussed; promote efforts that seek to ensure that everyone has opportunities that allow them to afford to pay their own and secure their own future - all at the same time rather than as a zero-sum game. Actively confront the perversely self-ratified and self-centered self-interest. Highlight the immorality of seeing society only in terms of dollars, and insist that society values people more than money. Work toward changes that will reverse some of these failings.
So basically, you don't have examples of how you live your life of economic morality.
There is nothing "reduced" about society's responsibility to its members. There is nothing "reduced" about the obligation to provide the opportunity for every worker to be able to pay their own way and secure their own future. There is nothing "reduced" about highlighting the moral inadequacy of hiding behind one's privileges of birth and luck.
We have already provided the opportunity for every worker to be able to pay their own way and secure their own future. We have not and should not guarantee they will take advantage of that oppotunity, and we have not and should not take responsibility if they do not.
Stop arguing with me about things I haven't said. It just underscores that you have no legitimate response to what I've said to you.
Perhaps you should tell us what you do stand for? Some of us are having a hard time figuring that out. You tell me what is wrong with supply and demand? If you take economics it is one of the first principals you learn.
What did I say that is immoral? All I have said is that if Disney has to compete; it will pay higher wages. What is wrong with encouraging people to look for better jobs? Certainly when you are younger it is an excellent time to shop around for the best employer. If you start working for Disney and you don't make enough to survive; who's fault is it? If Disney would have to put their managers in tin man outfits because they do not have the employees; you had better believe that they would offer better wages and benefits. Right now they have no reason to do better because they will always find another sucker to replace any worker.
There's only one problem with this. Anyone CAN succeed, but EVERYONE can't. The job market is hierchical and therefore zero sum. There has to be losers, otherwise all low wage service jobs wouldn't exist and people would be back to making their own food and grocery stores, movie theaters, bowling alleys etc wouldn't exist, because no one would want to work for lower wages than they're qualified for. I just wish people like yourself would be honest and admit that not everyone can be middle class, and that a given number of people will be condemned to the lower end of the wealth ladder
Condemned?
It is all about choices. I pulled myself out of poverty into the middle class. Really my wife and I did it. We stopped acting like victims. OK, I never considered myself a victim. What I did think was that if I was a good person someone else would help me out of my situation. What an attitude I had. Took me a long time to realize that the world does not take care of people unwilling to help themselves.
Realize first that zero sum does not exist. New business opportunities are being created all the time. New options flow to those that are willing to do something. Opportunities abound for those willing to look for them or make them happen.
Not everyone is willing to put in the effort though.
My sister in law is about as low wage as you can get. She is in her late 50's and has been working for the same thrift store for 14 years now. Her only benefit is one week a year off and it is always the same week of the year off. They tell her when she gets to take her vacation.
We have openings all the time at the hospital in Housekeeping. These jobs start out at $3 or $4 more an hour than she is getting now. They offer health insurance, paid time off with up to two weeks vacation and 48 hours a year for sick or personal time, and on top of that, she would have other benefits that my sister in law does not get.
The problem? My sister in law is not willing to fill out an online application, take time off for an interview, or do anything to prepare herself for a job. Her inaction is keeping her stuck in a job that pays little.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,590 posts, read 14,728,809 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE
Condemned?
It is all about choices. I pulled myself out of poverty into the middle class. Really my wife and I did it. We stopped acting like victims. OK, I never considered myself a victim. What I did think was that if I was a good person someone else would help me out of my situation. What an attitude I had. Took me a long time to realize that the world does not take care of people unwilling to help themselves.
Realize first that zero sum does not exist. New business opportunities are being created all the time. New options flow to those that are willing to do something. Opportunities abound for those willing to look for them or make them happen.
Not everyone is willing to put in the effort though.
My sister in law is about as low wage as you can get. She is in her late 50's and has been working for the same thrift store for 14 years now. Her only benefit is one week a year off and it is always the same week of the year off. They tell her when she gets to take her vacation.
We have openings all the time at the hospital in Housekeeping. These jobs start out at $3 or $4 more an hour than she is getting now. They offer health insurance, paid time off with up to two weeks vacation and 48 hours a year for sick or personal time, and on top of that, she would have other benefits that my sister in law does not get.
The problem? My sister in law is not willing to fill out an online application, take time off for an interview, or do anything to prepare herself for a job. Her inaction is keeping her stuck in a job that pays little.
But again, it's not like her job just vanishes if she gets a better one, someone else then has to take that job. If all the current fast food workers went on to skilled professions, McDonalds and Jack In The Box and etc wouldn't go out of business, those jobs would still be there and someone would have to do them. That's what I mean by the heirchical zero sum job market. Does that not make sense?
But again, it's not like her job just vanishes if she gets a better one, someone else then has to take that job. If all the current fast food workers went on to skilled professions, McDonalds and Jack In The Box and etc wouldn't go out of business, those jobs would still be there and someone would have to do them. That's what I mean by the heirchical zero sum job market. Does that not make sense?
And?
Sure, someone will have to do those jobs. At least until robots are doing them. What's your point?
I have a feeling you're going to moan about them "not providing a living wage". So what? Lots of people don't need a "living wage". Every job on Earth does not need to be the sole source of sustenance for everyone.
Like it or not, there is nothing special or sacred about labor as opposed to any other cost in a business. Businesses buy labor like they buy electricity or land or raw materials. They, prudently, pay as little as possible for it. Some labor, you have to pay more to get, because the supply of people who are able to do the job is limited as compared to demand. Other labor, it's the opposite... there are millions of people who are willing to do low-skill jobs, so why, exactly, should an employer pay more to one person when they can pay less to another? If I demand $15 an hour and someone else who can do the job will take $10, why on Earth would the employer hire me instead of the other guy? Please try to specifically answer that question with emotionally neutral language.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,590 posts, read 14,728,809 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnojr
And?
Sure, someone will have to do those jobs. At least until robots are doing them. What's your point?
I have a feeling you're going to moan about them "not providing a living wage". So what? Lots of people don't need a "living wage". Every job on Earth does not need to be the sole source of sustenance for everyone.
Like it or not, there is nothing special or sacred about labor as opposed to any other cost in a business. Businesses buy labor like they buy electricity or land or raw materials. They, prudently, pay as little as possible for it. Some labor, you have to pay more to get, because the supply of people who are able to do the job is limited as compared to demand. Other labor, it's the opposite... there are millions of people who are willing to do low-skill jobs, so why, exactly, should an employer pay more to one person when they can pay less to another? If I demand $15 an hour and someone else who can do the job will take $10, why on Earth would the employer hire me instead of the other guy? Please try to specifically answer that question with emotionally neutral language.
For one thing, if you have more skills or experience than the $10/hr guy, that works in your favor. And also, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with low pay jobs if there were cheap housing options for said low wage workers, since we've made being homeless a crime (vagrancy laws) and we've made living 10 to an apartment a crime as well (occupancy laws). That basically gives the low wage workers no legal living arrangement if they can't live with family
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
