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Ah yes … the culture wars over how clothes fit. When our European friends come here to shop, we under great pressure inevitably succumb to buying clothes that are about one size too small never to again be worn once they depart. Why? Too form-fitting clothes can - depending upon the US location - be considered "trashy." In particular, I don't want my young teen venturing out on her own quite as "tightly" over dressed as her European peers.
Why do I inevitably give in to the unwise purchase? My heavens, but they seem to care and so if only to be polite it's easier to go along (but minimize our purchases).
That said, I wish the courtesy was returned. Even though our clothes are relatively expensive and do not scream "American," the intensity of the scrutiny from strangers (particularly middle-aged women) becomes wearisome at times well past the point of rudeness when we venture away from the protective tourist bubble in certain countries. I almost get the feeling that as "American tourists" we are exhibit A with what some may consider normal interaction patterns not applying.
While I enjoy our long summer trips in Europe for certainly most are very kind, there is inevitably a breath of relief once home at the sheer freedom of being able to wear what one chooses without judgment. (Yes, per my above reference to "trashy" there are guidelines and stereotypes but the range for personal taste seems wider than in parts of Western Europe.)
And here I do rather feel sorry for our friends. For although European by birth and citizenship, a couple of women have brought up the societal pressure felt from having their dress and grooming scrutinized by neighbors even when doing household chores like taking out the garbage.
Too, I tend to giggle at how *quickly* our visitors abandon the properly tight clothing they arrive with for comfort when they come here - even if it means repeatedly wearing one looser fitting and more casual outfit.
You are kidding, right?
When I'm traveling overseas (and come to think of it, when I'm anywhere), I really don't care what other people think of my clothes, or if they "can tell" I'm American. So what? I'm dressed in what I like, I'm comfortable, and HEY - I'M HERE TO SPEND MONEY and enjoy myself while on vacation. So deal with it.
To clarify, I do familiarize myself with societal norms and local etiquette expectations when I travel, and I do try not to offend anyone, but if my comfortable - NOT SKINNY - jeans actually offend anyone, then I guess they have bigger issues than I care to deal with. If I am going out to eat at a nice restaurant, or going to an event or a theater or church, then of course I dress appropriately. But just sightseeing? Please - who cares what I'm wearing? Certainly not me.
In reagards to smiles and friendliness being fake, I think I have some perspective on this.
It's not that they are fake, but to certain cultures it comes across as a bit too large. The restaurant server that acts like they are your best friend they haven't seen in years. I understand that is not what they think they are portraying, but in a lot of places in the world, people don't want to know the servers first name.
The same can be said of other cultures which come across as very friendly and extremely polite, like the Japanese. You could argue that their demeanour is more cultural than sincere.
Here's the deal though - when in Rome, do as the Romans. In much of the US, this friendliness is considered an expression of COURTESY. It's considered impolite not to smile and be friendly. That big smile and "first name basis" is a societal norm, and it's not meant to convey anything more than courtesy. That server isn't asking to be your first born's godmother, or best man at your wedding!
So - just as people who are traveling to Japan or Germany (or wherever) should read up on local customs and etiquette, and try to conform out of respect for that culture - people visiting parts of the US where this level of friendliness is expected as a common courtesy, need to read up on that and try to conform as well. Or at the very least, they need to quit griping about it and criticizing it. It is THE WAY IT IS and locals like it that way.
Here's the deal though - when in Rome, do as the Romans. In much of the US, this friendliness is considered an expression of COURTESY. It's considered impolite not to smile and be friendly. That big smile and "first name basis" is a societal norm, and it's not meant to convey anything more than courtesy. That server isn't asking to be your first born's godmother, or best man at your wedding!
So - just as people who are traveling to Japan or Germany (or wherever) should read up on local customs and etiquette, and try to conform out of respect for that culture - people visiting parts of the US where this level of friendliness is expected as a common courtesy, need to read up on that and try to conform as well. Or at the very least, they need to quit griping about it and criticizing it. It is THE WAY IT IS and locals like it that way.
I am not disagreeing with you. I am only stating how your culture is perceived. Not sure where you got the me criticizing it, after all I did say
"It's not that they are fake, but to certain cultures it comes across as a bit too large."
and
"The same can be said of other cultures which come across as very friendly and extremely polite, like the Japanese. You could argue that their demeanour is more cultural than sincere."
When I'm traveling overseas (and come to think of it, when I'm anywhere), I really don't care what other people think of my clothes, or if they "can tell" I'm American. So what? I'm dressed in what I like, I'm comfortable, and HEY - I'M HERE TO SPEND MONEY and enjoy myself while on vacation. So deal with it.
To clarify, I do familiarize myself with societal norms and local etiquette expectations when I travel, and I do try not to offend anyone, but if my comfortable - NOT SKINNY - jeans actually offend anyone, then I guess they have bigger issues than I care to deal with. If I am going out to eat at a nice restaurant, or going to an event or a theater or church, then of course I dress appropriately. But just sightseeing? Please - who cares what I'm wearing? Certainly not me.
Kathryn, I know you're right. And truth be told, I was hoping you'd weigh in. Thanks. I'm actually laughing now but, that said, we still are only going to be spending about 6 days in Italy this coming summer (and most of that in the South Tyrol, which is culturally more German). Mainly for other reasons, but still ...
The issue wasn't offense, but rather fashion is important enough to some in Europe (well, at least northern Italy) that it's only natural there is bound to be someone who is absolutely fascinated by your dress and shoes for that's the title of this thread "How do you identify different nationalities abroad?" That's part of the traveling, and I accept it. It's a bit of a game played around the world. I have a skirt that can make me look French; in my backpacking days, I was usually thought to be Irish. I'm more than fine with being identified as American.
So given this summer's travel locations where we weren't masked by large numbers of other tourists or foreigners, it is understandable some sartorial curiosity be directed our way. That said, I at times became a tad uncomfortable with the scrutiny, particularly from middle-aged women. It is culturally American that if caught staring at someone you give a little smile or, at least, turn away. Not here - I think I used the term Exhibit A. (And it was about clothing … up and down, certainly not missing the shoes !!!)
Now staring per se doesn't bother me for pre-kid I spent a lot of time traveling in the Middle East and Asia venturing into areas where the children had never seen a Caucasian.
A child bursting into tears at my appearance I get. Too, we dress fairly conservatively: I favor skirts and dresses in natural fabrics with simple flats. A couple of summers back I'm convinced it was our clothing that got us pulled out of line for upgrades to Club World on a British Air return flight to the US. But this summer my teen reached the point of forbidding me (!!!) from venturing out of our rented flat or hotel room in northern Italy wearing a jersey dress in a softly muted beige-brown print (chosen to avoid showing any stains for we travel very lightly for long periods) that made me look positively stick-like.
That said, my point isn't to be critical in the absolute of another setting for picking up on (and admittedly analyzing !!!) cultural overtones is why I've always travelled. Here, I was pleased to return to a greater appreciation for the flexibility in dress found in America.
For this is about my personal take about how I weigh current travel experiences (and choose destinations). What I learned from the Middle East trips is that even when venturing into a culture with different norms, each individual has to determine their personal boundaries. There, I would not tolerate being touched even though grasping I certainly appeared to be a fair target given my travel choice to be on my own. Here, I concluded that the blatancy reached the point of being (to me) potentially rude. That doesn't mean it would ever be appropriate for me to so label it in the absolute. For "when in Rome" and so on. Nor would I ever determine to NOT return to Italy for it is just one certainly minor aspect of a total experience. The country is spectacular and the Italians with whom we have had more than superficial interactions have been warm and lovely.
The funny thing is once home I was speaking of this to an acquaintance from the Czech Republic. He immediately scoffed at my reaction until he realized I was speaking of Italy. Oh those Italians and their clothes … when THEY come to Prague … and off he went. Too, the other day I found a sheath very like the ones being worn in Italy this summer (and summers past) at a great price and immediately snapped it up. They (and the Japanese) do have incredibly good taste.
When I'm traveling overseas (and come to think of it, when I'm anywhere), I really don't care what other people think of my clothes, or if they "can tell" I'm American. So what? I'm dressed in what I like, I'm comfortable, and HEY - I'M HERE TO SPEND MONEY and enjoy myself while on vacation. So deal with it. .
And this is what so many appreciate about America, our sense of personal freedom. Our lifeguard this summer is Czech and I, as is my usual practice, spent endless hours talking with him about his country and what he thought of America and so on.
I can't provide his exact wording for his English is not fluent while I can manage only a few words of tourist Czech. Even my paraphrases are far from being definitive.
That said, he was speaking of the relative simplicity of living in a society (The Czech Republic) where townspeople or those involved in a social grouping first negotiate among themselves to arrive at a common understanding of "how things are to be done or organized" then generally comply with the agreement(s) reached. He seemed to be viewing it as more of a communal culture.
But then jumped to his appreciation of how in America he did not have the sense of "being watched" to see if he, the individual, was conforming to the societal expectations.
When I'm traveling overseas (and come to think of it, when I'm anywhere), I really don't care what other people think of my clothes, or if they "can tell" I'm American. So what? I'm dressed in what I like, I'm comfortable, and HEY - I'M HERE TO SPEND MONEY and enjoy myself while on vacation. So deal with it.
To clarify, I do familiarize myself with societal norms and local etiquette expectations when I travel, and I do try not to offend anyone, but if my comfortable - NOT SKINNY - jeans actually offend anyone, then I guess they have bigger issues than I care to deal with. If I am going out to eat at a nice restaurant, or going to an event or a theater or church, then of course I dress appropriately. But just sightseeing? Please - who cares what I'm wearing? Certainly not me.
I always find why its bad to have this attitude, all my friends who go oversees completely change their wardrobe and its like they are different people.
I always find why its bad to have this attitude, all my friends who go oversees completely change their wardrobe and its like they are different people.
^
one of the best YT channels for traveling and he tells people what to wear like there is a dress code once you leave the country.
Can you explain more? This is interesting to me. How and why would your friends want to be "different people"? I've said having my clothing closely examined did (for one particular trip) become tiring. But there is a wide division between pretending to be European and being an ugly American.
For one, there is no way to completely change your wardrobe unless, at a minimum, the shoes are purchased overseas. For example, converse sneakers are big in Italy right now. I was delighted to see that at one wedding each of the groomsmen was garbed in perfectly tailored suits wearing brand new converse sneakers. But the sneakers are different (or appeared to be, for I have to admit I only buy them for my daughter and haven't gone thru every catalog). In particular, the soles are thicker. My kid said the patterns were different - and she, a converse-devotee, has a good eye.
Too, I'm guessing you're younger. I just mentioned in my previous very long post that I was usually mis-identified as Irish in years past. That was based on my coloring, speech (deliberately clipped to be more understandable to non-English speakers), and dress (uniform backpacker, with clothes bought overseas as my other ones wore out). But I wasn't trying to appear non-American.
Here, I'll pass on one word of wisdom. As you age out of seemingly more universally styled super skinny jeans (I can easily fit into them but find them uncomfortable for long plane/train/bus rides), the options narrow. The Italian-looking sheath I just purchased will never make it into the suitcase next summer.
The fabric of the sheath is way too impractical - IF you are into traveling very light (a must for all the public transportation we use), IF you're away for substantial portions of time, IF you wish to present a neat, clean appearance.
Last edited by EveryLady; 09-10-2014 at 02:24 PM..
I always find why its bad to have this attitude, all my friends who go oversees completely change their wardrobe and its like they are different people.
^
one of the best YT channels for traveling and he tells people what to wear like there is a dress code once you leave the country.
The dress thing is a bit weird, except the pyjamas bit. Seriously, does that happen?? Some of the advice is good though, packing, learning a few words. It's natural to compare things to back home. What annoys people is when some people express it in a way that makes it sound that back home is superior. Especially when no one asked you.
Money. Canadian can identify with that one. Some American tourists still have to be told that the hotel and restaurant bill is in CAD. That no, even though, as a courtesy a business may take USD, ( with an exchange rate to their advantage ) you don't get change in USD. I'm sure if another Canadian hears an American describe our money as " monopoly money " they'll scream.
one of the best YT channels for traveling and he tells people what to wear like there is a dress code once you leave the country.
He is pretty horrible... Reminds me of Jamie from that Eurotrip movie.
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But this summer my teen reached the point of forbidding me (!!!) from venturing out of our rented flat or hotel room in northern Italy wearing a jersey dress in a softly muted beige-brown print (chosen to avoid showing any stains for we travel very lightly for long periods) that made me look positively stick-like.
