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Old 12-15-2012, 10:07 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,942 posts, read 4,700,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
not really what i was getting at , the number of people who claim not to believe in god in denmark or sweeden is also high yet i still view those countries as being culturally lutheran , i dont see france as culturally catholic despite most french people being nominally catholic , its not comparable to italy , spain or even ireland
That's why I wasn't responding to you
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,698,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
not really what i was getting at , the number of people who claim not to believe in god in denmark or sweeden is also high yet i still view those countries as being culturally lutheran , i dont see france as culturally catholic despite most french people being nominally catholic , its not comparable to italy , spain or even ireland
When a given religion prevails for many centuries, the people have their culture organized according to the fundamentals of that religion. I am as atheist as one can get, but because I grew up in a predominatly Christian culture, my ethics are strongly influenced by the customs and teachings of Christianity. What film producer Mark Borchardt called a "Christian-coated ethical arena". Countries that have been predominately Christian for many centuries have certain ethical customs in common, which may be visibly different from those in non-Christian countries, and all the members of the society behave according to certain ethical codes, whether they believe in the Christian God or savior, or not.

This explains why Denmark and Sweden are "culturally Lutheran", even though few people profess to believe in all the teachings of the Luthean Church. When I lived in the Middle East, I was considered to be a Christian, even though I accepted none of the trappings of that faith. But I still stood out from my Muslim neighbors, in that I my behavior and lifestyle resembled that of Christians, rather than of non-practising Muslims.

Last edited by jtur88; 12-15-2012 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:02 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
When a given religion prevails for many centuries, the people have their culture organized according to the fundamentals of that religion. I am as atheist as one can get, but because I grew up in a predominatly Christian culture, my ethics are strongly influenced by the customs and teachings of Christianity. What film producer Mark Borchardt called a "Christian-coated ethical arena". Countries that have been predominately Christian for many centuries have certain ethical customs in common, which may be visibly different from those in non-Christian countries, and all the members of the society behave according to certain ethical codes, whether they believe in the Christian God or savior, or not.

This explains why Denmark and Sweden are "culturally Lutheran", even though few people profess to believe in all the teachings of the Luthean Church. When I lived in the Middle East, I was considered to be a Christian, even though I accepted none of the trappings of that faith. But I still stood out from my Muslim neighbors, in that I my behavior and lifestyle resembled that of Christians, rather than of non-practising Muslims.
What ethics do you have that are distinctly Christian?
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,698,577 times
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Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
What ethics do you have that are distinctly Christian?
Things like marriage, family relationships and responsibilities, inheritance. Formal greetings, social hierarchy, observance of holidays, acceptable dress, table manners, sexual and gender mores, treatment of animals. Specifically etchics-related, the relative severity of different kinds of crimes and social transgressions and business transactions. Those things seem "normal" the way they have been practiced in Christian countries, just because that is the way I was brought up.

That is not to say "exclusively Christian", but different from some of the the ways of people raised in some non-Christian cultures. Even if you are a completely atheist free-thinker, imagine how hard it would be for a farm girl from Iowa or Friesland to marry into a Hindu family in India, and be expected to observe their customs on a day to day basis.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
2,872 posts, read 4,509,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
i always think of france as a bit of an anomaly when it comes to defining it from a culturally religous POV , i find it hard to class france as culturally catholic in any real sense at all and it could never be considered culturally protestant , france has created its own ethos and style
Well, you have to realise that dechristianisation (more precicely de-catholicisation if I can say so) is a very recent phenomenon compared to France's history.
France have been the most catholic country in the world for at least 15 centuries (it has been called the "fille ainée de l"Eglise" since the first "barbaric" king converted for the first time to Roman church.) since then the country has been ruled for centuries by the association of the church and the kings.

The revolution had put an end to this rule; but basically had constructed the foundations of "republique" on the former social structures laid by the catholic church, without religous aspects.
The Republic has been definitly separated to the catholic church only on century ago.
The french population have from then slowly declined in their religiosity, and especially after 1968, when all the old traditional social structures and their values have been contested (including the Catholic church). Since then there is traditionally a social division in french society between the leftists who became strongly anti-catholic (which has not been the case before); and the more conservatives people which are often practicing catholics.

I don't know Czech republic, but when I see the datas I feel that the dechristianisation was even stronger than in France. I still consider France and Czech republic as culturally catholic in the same extend I do consider Sweden a culturally protestant country.

France is a culturally catholic country for long-lasting historic reasons (that had left marks: for exemple today most of official "republican" holydays still are the catholic ones); but also for the simple reason that Catholicism still remains the majority of the population and the main religious group:
60% of french people still declare themselves as catholics; with various levels of actual practice.
30% of french people declare not having a religion, those people still are coming from families that were often practicing catholics only one or two generations ago. Many of them have been baptisted catholic.
4% are muslims
2% are evangelist, mostly of immigrant origins: Africa and west indies
1% are protestant (non-evangelists)
1% are jewish
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