How are race relations like among most average folk in South Africa? (speak, cost)

[giodept]

Both whites and rich blacks are afraid of the underclass blacks, being the majority of the population, because of the high number of crimes. Not have a chat with the blacks, unless you know them well. People are very careful in South Africa with strangers because of the high crime rate. And there is also the problem of high HIV rate.

Originally Posted by JohnCarson

I have been in South Africa a few times and have friends living there. They complain mostly about the high-crime which I also noted when I have been in SA. What I hate with SA is that you cannot be outside after dark in major cities like Johannesburg, Pretoria, Durban, Cape Town and Port Elizabeth without getting mugged or even raped or murdered. A friend of mine lives in a gated community outside Johannesburg which is surrounded by high walls, electric fence, cameras and armed guards. In the night he locks all windows and doors. He has Plexiglas windows. I was pretty surprised when I visit him that the security was so tight. We visit a friend of him who lived in his own house. He had high walls, electric fence, Plexiglas windows with incorporated bars and rollerstyle steel shutters, security lights, alarms, razor wires, cameras and his large porch widows with rollerstyle steel shutters. His home was in a peaceful suburb. So why did he have all these security items? Well, because upper-middle class suburbs are targets but criminals in South Africa. My first time I was in SA I was almost robbed in the middle of downtown Cape Town just after the dark. It was like – hey, let’s walking home from the restaurant instead of taking a cab. The others took a cab and walked alone. I was lucky that a larger group of tourists came walking by just when they showed their knife.

[dowsieboi]

Originally Posted by caribny

Live in NYC and have been to various parts of West Africa, but don't see the relevance to this topic as South Africa is very different. I live in a neighborhood with large numbers of Nigerians and often mistaken by THEM as being one. I am from Guyana. We were very involved in the apartheid struggle and heard much about South Africa.

I have met several black, colored, and white South Africans, and indeed even worked with a white South African female who clearly had lots of white guilt every time she saw me. The issue of South Africa was always introduced by her, as if she felt a need to show that she wasn't a beneficiary of apartheid. I know that she had lots of angst about this, and carried loads of baggage.


White South Africans in NYC bond with other Anglophone whites, and black South Africans with other black Africans. When they meet they are polite but then return to their own worlds. Obviously there will be exceptions to this. I am sure that many of the younger educated ones go out of their way to seek each other. White South Africans are NOT part of the African community in NYC. Hence my skepticism that there is this general "South African" culture. What ever such identity that might exist in South Africa isn't strong enough to bind them once they leave. I can well imagine that if black and white South Africans meet the equivalent from Zimbabwe they will separate on the basis of race, and not by nationality.

I find that black South Africans bond with African Americans even more than do other Africans. In fact maybe more than even Caribbean blacks. I guess because of their similar histories and the strong support that they received in the apartheid period, especially for those living in the USA during that time.

As I said your perspective will be very interesting as you are a product of post apartheid South Africa. How whites are processing apartheid is clearly quite relevant, given that this system has shaped South Africa.

The fact is that there are several parallels between the USA and South Africa, given that both societies had some of the most sordid forms of racism within the living memory of many.

Yup West Africa is going to be very different to down here I see, so you have had some limited interaction at least.

White guilt can definitely be an issue and it mainly comes down to a government tactic. If they can keep bringing up the past then they can keep using it as their go to card to get re elected. Whether it be by threatening people, buying their votes with food and clothing packages or by spreading fear that Apartheid will return.

In reality though, the "born frees" aren't interested in the war their parents fought and this has been something I've tried to make an effort to discuss with colleagues at work. Asking them how their lives were back then and how they were affected. Funny enough, they weren't and they don't care.

The 1 guy told me his story how he grew up in the township and while he chose to study and get an education, his brother became a taxi driver. He says his brother doesn't want to study and is happy to just earn money and then spend it on alcohol and partying. I thought it was an interesting contrast how values have shifted and that there is the possibility for change and for people who suffered under Apartheid to work and pull themselves out of it (as my colleague did, and he has my respect for that)

I guess explaining South African culture might be a bit difficult. Only advice I could really give you would be to actually visit South Africa. I don't think it'll be the same experience as interacting with a few people in America. There's just something about being here that you experience a certain vibe among the people and you see that the majority do actually get along despite any differences.

[caribny]

Originally Posted by dowsieboi

Yup West Africa is going to be very different to down here I see, so you have had some limited interaction at least.

White guilt can definitely be an issue and it mainly comes down to a government tactic. If they can keep bringing up the past then they can keep using it as their go to card to get re elected. Whether it be by threatening people, buying their votes with food and clothing packages or by spreading fear that Apartheid will return.

In reality though, the "born frees" aren't interested in the war their parents fought and this has been something I've tried to make an effort to discuss with colleagues at work. Asking them how their lives were back then and how they were affected. Funny enough, they weren't and they don't care.

The 1 guy told me his story how he grew up in the township and while he chose to study and get an education, his brother became a taxi driver. He says his brother doesn't want to study and is happy to just earn money and then spend it on alcohol and partying. I thought it was an interesting contrast how values have shifted and that there is the possibility for change and for people who suffered under Apartheid to work and pull themselves out of it (as my colleague did, and he has my respect for that)

I guess explaining South African culture might be a bit difficult. Only advice I could really give you would be to actually visit South Africa. I don't think it'll be the same experience as interacting with a few people in America. There's just something about being here that you experience a certain vibe among the people and you see that the majority do actually get along despite any differences.

Most people in most places "get on". The fact that blacks and whites in South Africa don't daily battle each other isn't news. Its the exceptional country where daily battles between different peoples are the norm, so really this isn't anything to comment on. The reality is that black and white South Africans still have issues of distrust and cannot work together to accomplish broad goals. Hence you have the ANC in its present shape!

The blacks who have visited South Africa inform my view of your country and its race relations, so why do you think that I will some how see something different? As an outsider my reference points will be different.

I will point out that given that South Africa is far from the USA it is accessible only by affluent people, so these black tourists (some American, some Caribbean, and some African) are very successful people.

You might see a country which has made progress in its race relations since the end of apartheid. That being a very low barrier, given that South Africa was the most racist nation any where up to a mere 25 years ago. And that you come from those who benefitted and so who share responsibility for a system which they may or may not have supported, but which they certainly didn't fight to oppose. A system which you still haven't reconciled yourself with in terms of its impact, except to block it from your thinking, and willing it away and suggesting that blacks should do the same.

I will judge it with reference to the USA which has its own shameful legacy of bigotry against its black citizens.

I will see how whites in BOTH South Africa and the USA assuage their guilt by pretending as if all is well in terms of how blacks and whites relate. And to the extent that there are problems that it is due to black militants who play the race card.

I will see whites refusing to accept any responsibility for the fact that the legacy of racism has given them leg up, when compared to blacks, and that black demands for equality have merit.

I will hear whites crying about "discrimination" against them while denying that they are beneficiaries of past discrimination against others.

And of course whites will cite anecdotes from some "black friend" as evidence to back their views.


I asked you questions which you either cannot/will not answer. I can only conclude that this national South African culture which encompasses all isn't really true, but a fantasy world as a way of coping with the legacy of apartheid. My questions were quite simple, many answerable with a simple "yes" or "no".

I suggest that the ANC is what it is because South Africa remains a deeply racially polarized nation. The ANC is quite arrogant as they know that the prospects of a loss are quite remote. The DA isn't going to make inroads into the black majority vote, and most blacks aren't mad enough to think that the EFF will offer better prospects, even if their populist rhetoric is quite stirring.

If South Africans had indeed developed that national culture and identity to which you refer to the DA would have given the ANC a good run for their money. This would have forced the ANC to be less arrogant and less corrupt, and much more inclusive in how they govern the nation.

And seriously I doubt that most South African blacks are a group of unambitious people who just want to drink and party all day!

[dowsieboi]

Originally Posted by caribny

/snip

Good grief, I've honestly tried to just have a friendly discussion with you but clearly you have quite the agenda against white people and you have no real interest in that at all.

So since you have taken the time to "judge" whites in reference to the USA, allow me to form my opinion of YOU based on this post?

I will point out that given that South Africa is far from the USA it is accessible only by affluent people, so these black tourists (some American, some Caribbean, and some African) are very successful people.

So only by affluent people and very successful black people can come to South Africa? Calling BS on this. It costs us way more to visit the US and we're still able to do that without being any of those things.

That being a very low barrier, given that South Africa was the most racist nation any where up to a mere 25 years ago.

I actually tried to research this statement and I can't find any reference anywhere. Care to provide a link or did you just say this to help your post?

The blacks who have visited South Africa inform my view of your country and its race relations

And of course whites will cite anecdotes from some "black friend" as evidence to back their views.

So you're a hypocrite?

My questions were quite simple, many answerable with a simple "yes" or "no".

Your questions:

What cultural adjustments have you had to make to succeed in the NEW South Africa...and I don't mean just greater tolerance of non whites?
To what extent have you, as a white South African, had to incorporate significant aspects of the indigenous South African culture within your daily life?

So my question is to what degree have white South Africans come to terms with their role (direct or indirect) with apartheid, given its strong legacy in what South Africa is today? Because that is really the key issue.

These are not yes or no questions.

I didn't answer these questions because they were loaded questions. In other words, I don't think you're actually interested in my response and they were merely there to lead to your next argument regardless of what I would have said.

If South Africans had indeed developed that national culture and identity to which you refer to the DA would have given the ANC a good run for their money. This would have forced the ANC to be less arrogant and less corrupt, and much more inclusive in how they govern the nation.

You do realise the DA only grew stronger in the last elections? They have almost all of the Western Cape and the almost took Johannesburg these last elections? Predictions are that they might take Johannesburg or Pretoria in the local elections in 2016. This then leads to possibly getting the majority in Gauteng in the next national elections.

This has caused the ANC Gauteng to suddenly change their position on eTolls in a bid to try prevent this. But you're right, nothing to see here right?

And seriously I doubt that most South African blacks are a group of unambitious people who just want to drink and party all day!

I mentioned 1 guy and you translate this into me saying "most". Again, this only shows that you have no interest in what I'm actually saying?

So there you go. That's what I can take away from just 1 of your posts. But please feel free to judge our entire nation on a whim. We really appreciate your valuable input

[Kradmelder]

Originally Posted by caribny

Most people in most places "get on".

yes I get on by minimising all interaction with them to purely business. Why must we mix? Their culture is like oil and water to mine.

Hence you have the ANC in its present shape!

So the corruption, crime and violence of the ANC is due to whites and apartheid? Then please explain why it exists all over Africa where there was no apartheid, or even white rule, like in Ethiopia and Liberia.

The blacks who have visited South Africa inform my view of your country and its race relations, so why do you think that I will some how see something different? As an outsider my reference points will be different.

Or maybe behave your third hand info comes only from blacks. You don't see that as biased?

I will point out that given that South Africa is far from the USA it is accessible only by affluent people, so these black tourists (some American, some Caribbean, and some African) are very successful people.

So only wealthy people can come here? Please tell that to the Zimbabweans, Nigerians, congolese etc then perhaps they will stop flooding us

given that South Africa was the most racist nation any where up to a mere 25 years ago. And that you come from those who benefitted and so who share responsibility for a system which they may or may not have supported,

A young white had to go to the army for 2 years, or the police for 3. Then still had to do annual army camps. He then had to study and get a skill at his own expense, and if he was very good at his job, maybe rise a manager or director by 50.

Blacks got given free education, are put in jobs they are not qualified for nor have the experience, only because of their colour not merit. And this at 30. And they get BEE preference on contracts. Because of apartheid. so who really benefitted from apartheid? These black diamonds and all the BEE hangers on are the beneficiaries of apartheid as much if not more so than whites. They certainly have accumulated wealth they didn't work for faster than whites who took generations.

I will judge it with reference to the USA which has its own shameful legacy of bigotry against its black citizens.

Every race that came to America, Irish, Jews, Mexican, Chinese etc faced discrimination. why did they all make a success, except blacks? Discrimination was no obstacle. 150 years after slavery, and those in the north had no slavery, we still see Watts and St Louis. How much KFC you can vreet, gold chains, pimp mobiles, grills, and ridiculous clothing is not success. Nor is filling the prisons out of all proportions to your numbers. It may be an achievement but it is not success.

And of course whites will cite anecdotes from some "black friend" as evidence to back their views.

No. I don't claim any black friends. I generally don't like people with an entitlement mindset, always whining they are oppressed, but achieve nothing on their own.

I suggest that the ANC is what it is because South Africa remains a deeply racially polarized nation. The ANC is quite arrogant as they know that the prospects of a loss are quite remote. The DA isn't going to make inroads into the black majority vote, and most blacks aren't mad enough to think that the EFF will offer better prospects, even if their populist rhetoric is quite stirring.

The ANC is nothing but a criminal mafia and has always been. Nothing to do with whites. If anything, their key advisors were communist jews.

EFF is typical of the mentality. it stands for Everything For Free.

And seriously I doubt that most South African blacks are a group of unambitious people who just want to drink and party all day!

The truth hurts

[caribny]

Originally Posted by dowsieboi

Good grief, I've honestly tried to just have a friendly discussion with you but clearly you have quite the agenda against white people and you have no real interest in that at all.

So since you have taken the time to "judge" whites in reference to the USA, allow me to form my opinion of YOU based on this post?



So only by affluent people and very successful black people can come to South Africa? Calling BS on this. It costs us way more to visit the US and we're still able to do that without being any of those things.



I actually tried to research this statement and I can't find any reference anywhere. Care to provide a link or did you just say this to help your post?





So you're a hypocrite?



Your questions:



These are not yes or no questions.

I didn't answer these questions because they were loaded questions. In other words, I don't think you're actually interested in my response and they were merely there to lead to your next argument regardless of what I would have said.



You do realise the DA only grew stronger in the last elections? They have almost all of the Western Cape and the almost took Johannesburg these last elections? Predictions are that they might take Johannesburg or Pretoria in the local elections in 2016. This then leads to possibly getting the majority in Gauteng in the next national elections.

This has caused the ANC Gauteng to suddenly change their position on eTolls in a bid to try prevent this. But you're right, nothing to see here right?



I mentioned 1 guy and you translate this into me saying "most". Again, this only shows that you have no interest in what I'm actually saying?

So there you go. That's what I can take away from just 1 of your posts. But please feel free to judge our entire nation on a whim. We really appreciate your valuable input

Zuma a corrupt and incompetent man, yet he won over 60% of the vote and you still think that most blacks trust white leadership? Interesting because obviously the ANC has long ceased to be living in the after glow of Mandela, so it must be some other reason why they still remain strong. Continue to fool yourself about what that is.

Indeed if you add up the 3 largest parties which focus on the black vote they get 70% of the votes or almost 90% of the black vote. Why? Are the ANC, EFF and the Inkatha group so wonderful? I think not.

Any way I know that you have to live down the guilt of apartheid so I can see why you will build certain fantasy worlds. It is clear that South Africa is still working its way out of apartheid. And this is not because the ANC raises the race card either, as you claim it is. See kradmelder as evidence of why certain memories haven't disappeared. Indeed unlike the USA where many whites were engaged in the Civil Rights movements it is less evident that any where near as many South African whites living in South Africa were engaged in the anti apartheid movement. This is obviously why the ANC is a disaster but yet get 62% of the votes, only slightly below what they got in the previous election.

[caribny]

Originally Posted by Kradmelder

yes I get on by minimising all interaction with them to purely business. Why must we mix? Their culture is like oil and water to mine.



So the corruption, crime and violence of the ANC is due to whites and apartheid? Then please explain why it exists all over Africa where there was no apartheid, or even white rule, like in Ethiopia and Liberia.


Or maybe behave your third hand info comes only from blacks. You don't see that as biased?


So only wealthy people can come here? Please tell that to the Zimbabweans, Nigerians, congolese etc then perhaps they will stop flooding us




A young white had to go to the army for 2 years, or the police for 3. Then still had to do annual army camps. He then had to study and get a skill at his own expense, and if he was very good at his job, maybe rise a manager or director by 50.

Blacks got given free education, are put in jobs they are not qualified for nor have the experience, only because of their colour not merit. And this at 30. And they get BEE preference on contracts. Because of apartheid. so who really benefitted from apartheid? These black diamonds and all the BEE hangers on are the beneficiaries of apartheid as much if not more so than whites. They certainly have accumulated wealth they didn't work for faster than whites who took generations.




Every race that came to America, Irish, Jews, Mexican, Chinese etc faced discrimination. why did they all make a success, except blacks? Discrimination was no obstacle. 150 years after slavery, and those in the north had no slavery, we still see Watts and St Louis. How much KFC you can vreet, gold chains, pimp mobiles, grills, and ridiculous clothing is not success. Nor is filling the prisons out of all proportions to your numbers. It may be an achievement but it is not success.




No. I don't claim any black friends. I generally don't like people with an entitlement mindset, always whining they are oppressed, but achieve nothing on their own.



The ANC is nothing but a criminal mafia and has always been. Nothing to do with whites. If anything, their key advisors were communist jews.

EFF is typical of the mentality. it stands for Everything For Free.



The truth hurts

AND here is evidence that the same tactics that many whites use to avoid guilt about the USA's history of racism is also present among many white South Africans who saw an even more brutal form of bigotry that ended less than 25 years ago. He wishes to pretend that apartheid never existed nor that its existence will still have adverse impact. Maybe you agree with him.

[Atlwarrior]

How would you feel if some strange people who had weapons force them self upon you, and then use manipulation, and try to make two Africa's and change history to justify their existence. For instance do they notice that their are millions of people that don't look like them in surrounding regions. Go back to Britian, Oh I forgot they can't because of the diamonds.

[Kradmelder]

Originally Posted by Atlwarrior

How would you feel if some strange people who had weapons force them self upon you, and then use manipulation, and try to make two Africa's and change history to justify their existence. For instance do they notice that their are millions of people that don't look like them in surrounding regions. Go back to Britian, Oh I forgot they can't because of the diamonds.

Why don't you learn the history of SA. whites arrived in 1652. They didn't see the first Bantu until late 1700s near the Great Fish River. The Negro is not native to southern Africa. He migrated from the north. The natives are the San and Hotentots, who are a different race to the Negro and not Bantu people.

So whites were there long before they saw a negro.

Why would I go to Britain? Im not British. Will blacks go back to the Cameroon where their ancestors originate?

Whites don't own the diamonds. The Jews do.

[ILikeWine]

Originally Posted by Kradmelder

Why don't you learn the history of SA. whites arrived in 1652. They didn't see the first Bantu until late 1700s near the Great Fish River. The Negro is not native to southern Africa. He migrated from the north. The natives are the San and Hotentots, who are a different race to the Negro and not Bantu people.

So whites were there long before they saw a negro.

Why would I go to Britain? Im not British. Will blacks go back to the Cameroon where their ancestors originate?

Whites don't own the diamonds. The Jews do.

Then go back to the hell hole you decided to escape from. Just FYI, the San are in fact apart of the black race.