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OK well, we could turn this into a debate about fact, figures, and sources, but I think that would be a futile exercise, and rather boring as well. Maybe the source isn't perfect, I'll acknowledge that, but again, I think the point remains. There is a serious and pervasive problem with violent crime in Argentina. No, it isn't necessarily being murdered that one needs to fear; it's the street robberies and home invasions. You need to spend some time here, or at the very least talk to some Argentines about the apprehension and insecurity they feel in their own neighborhoods, even in the nicer areas. It's real, and it's very much a part of their daily lives.
None of the Argentines I've ever met have told me how insecure they've felt, and I've met and known a number of Argentines throughout the years. Maybe you're just paranoid.
Again, if you'd like to debate the Latino/White question, feel free to open a thread in the appropriate forum and I'll be happy to participate. But that includes the expectation that you're actually interested in a serious discussion rather than lobbing juvenile insults.Again, this is not an Argentina vs. US debate. It's obvious you were offended because an American offered an opinion and some facts about the epidemic crime in Argentina. Your response is a straw man: "There's violent crime in the US, too!" So what? No one is suggesting otherwise. You keep wanting to talk about homicide rates when we've already agreed that Argentina's homicide rate is relatively low. The fact remains, no matter who points it out to you, that the vast majority of the people in Argentina do not feel they or their property is safe.
Proof? You've offered just anecdotal evidence? Do you have studies from Argentina, written in Spanish and confirmed to be from reliable Argentine sources?
The other problem here is that Cristina apparently didn't feel it necessary to maintain crime stats for the last several years. I can imagine why. Like others, she must have found it easier to just stick her head in the sand.
With the latest stats, according to the BA Herald, these numbers have actually increased.
So I think the point remains and I stand by my statement. When you look at all violent crime and not just homicide rates, Argentina ranks among the world's worst.
Not according to the BA Herald, it reported things had decreased. It reported Buenos Aires was above the national average, but things had declined according to the BA Herald.
Basically, regardless of what the real situation is in Argentina, the comments on this thread are dehumanizing of Argentines, South Americans, and Latinos in general. Certain people are basically declaring everyone in Latin America a thief out to rob someone at the slightest provocation. It's not true. I've been in Paraguay, Colombia, Mexico, the Dominican Republic,and Brazil. I did not get robbed. Were their safety concerns? No safety concerns that we don't have in large cities in the US.
Do you have gates over windows and concrete housing? Yes. But in NYC storefronts until recently had metal grids that were pulled over them, and in many neighborhoods liquor stores have bulletproof glass behind them.
Crime in the US is not just Black or Latino, there's been historic organized Italian and Jewish organized crime, and of course you have the Russian mafia as well.
You've a massive drug epidemic among Americans, and mortality among white americans has declined due to suicide and opiate/alcohol overdoses.
"In a follow-up to their groundbreaking 2015 work, they say that a lack of steady, well-paying jobs for whites without college degrees has caused pain, distress and social dysfunction to build up over time. The mortality rate for that group, ages 45 to 54, increased by a half percent each year from 1999 to 2013."
This was the point of my original posting of this thread (and the name of this thread). That murder isn't as rife in Argentina (or, as someone suggested earlier in this thread, Sao Paulo as well) as it is in many areas of Brazil, Venezuela, parts of Central America, Mexico, etc., but that street robberies, carjackings, home invasions, etc. are just about as common nowadays in Argentina as in those other parts of Latin America. For example, I (as an innocent, middle-class person) dare say that in Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo I wouldn't necessarily fear being murdered but I would fear being robbed in some way or another, while in Rio de Janeiro or Caracas or San Pedro Sula (Honduras) I might fear being murdered as well as being robbed. (Although someone in this thread already suggested that the very high murder rates can mainly be explained by vicious gang activity - i.e. violence between gangs - and I would thus in all likelihood escape inter-gang violence unless I'm caught in the crossfire.)
Yes, I agree completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yofie
I'm wondering if it's the case that the residents of the nicer areas in Argentina feel as much apprehension/insecurity as in the "bad neighbourhoods" in the United States, and that in the "bad neighbourhoods" in Argentina the level of apprehension/insecurity way surpasses anything seen in the US?
To your first question, no. There are neighborhoods in the US that you wouldn't even want to drive through at night. This is certainly not true of any neighborhood one might classify as "nicer" in Argentina. To your second, I would say the "bad neighborhoods" in the US are as dangerous as virtually any in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yofie
As an aside, which is worse - the insecurity felt in Argentina today, or what was felt by residents of New York City in the 1970s, when NYC had a lot of crime going on?
I think the key difference is how widespread the insecurity is. In the US, in a neighborhood full of $200,000 homes, the residents feel pretty safe and they're comfortable walking alone at night. That is just not the case in BA.
Proof? You've offered just anecdotal evidence? Do you have studies from Argentina, written in Spanish and confirmed to be from reliable Argentine sources?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
None of the Argentines I've ever met have told me how insecure they've felt, and I've met and known a number of Argentines throughout the years. Maybe you're just paranoid.
Or more likely, you simply don't know what you're talking about. If you want to see studies, go ask your writer friends in academia to sit in their ivory towers and conduct a few. I live in the real world; I know hundreds of Argentines from every different background. I live here. I have 50 family members who live here. I know exactly what it's like. Don't try to tell me what I know, dude.
Basically, regardless of what the real situation is in Argentina, the comments on this thread are dehumanizing of Argentines, South Americans, and Latinos in general.
I see. So facts don't actually matter, only that your sensibilities are offended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
Certain people are basically declaring everyone in Latin America a thief out to rob someone at the slightest provocation. It's not true. I've been in Paraguay, Colombia, Mexico, the Dominican Republic,and Brazil. I did not get robbed. Were their safety concerns? No safety concerns that we don't have in large cities in the US.
I haven't seen anyone declare that. Some of us have declared that violent crime is a serious problem in Argentina. Any way you slice it, that is a fact. And apparently anecdotes are now perfectly acceptable. I guess we're supposed to accept your experience(as a tourist, right?) is somehow representative of the conditions in Latin America...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
Do you have gates over windows and concrete housing? Yes. But in NYC storefronts until recently had metal grids that were pulled over them, and in many neighborhoods liquor stores have bulletproof glass behind them.
Crime in the US is not just Black or Latino, there's been historic organized Italian and Jewish organized crime, and of course you have the Russian mafia as well.
That's true. Violent crime is not strictly limited to Blacks and Latinos. It's only about 80% of the total.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
You've a massive drug epidemic among Americans, and mortality among white americans has declined due to suicide and opiate/alcohol overdoses.
"In a follow-up to their groundbreaking 2015 work, they say that a lack of steady, well-paying jobs for whites without college degrees has caused pain, distress and social dysfunction to build up over time. The mortality rate for that group, ages 45 to 54, increased by a half percent each year from 1999 to 2013."
Not according to the BA Herald, it reported things had decreased. It reported Buenos Aires was above the national average, but things had declined according to the BA Herald.
Well, I'm not sure what to tell you. I provided the link, but I can't read it for you. We're not talking only about BA or only about homicide. Here's the first paragraph of the link, from Apr 2016:
"The Argentine government has published a revealing batch of nationwide crime statistics — the first in eight years — and it seems that during the blackout, homicides rose by 10 percent and robberies by nine percent."
To your first question, no. There are neighborhoods in the US that you wouldn't even want to drive through at night. This is certainly not true of any neighborhood one might classify as "nicer" in Argentina. To your second, I would say the "bad neighborhoods" in the US are as dangerous as virtually any in the world.
So from safest to least safe, there are the nice neighbourhoods in the US (safest), the nice neighbourhoods in Argentina (in the middle), and the bad neighbourhoods in both the US and Argentina (least safe)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor
I think the key difference is how widespread the insecurity is. In the US, in a neighborhood full of $200,000 homes, the residents feel pretty safe and they're comfortable walking alone at night. That is just not the case in BA.
Is that because a) the police in middle/upper class areas of the US are much more trustworthy and corruption-free than in lower class areas of the US and in areas of any socioeconomic type in Argentina and b) there are more shantytowns and squatter settlements in Argentina than in the US?
In the US, in a neighborhood full of $200,000 homes, the residents feel pretty safe and they're comfortable walking alone at night. That is just not the case in BA.
Here, you're talking just about the present. But I don't know if you were around in the 1970s in the US (or if someone old enough to remember those days told you tales of crime dangers in New York City at that point), in order to properly compare 1970s NYC with present-day Buenos Aires? (At any rate, how old are you now?)
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