Proposition 208 (Sun City: private schools, college, utilities)

[Maroon197]

Originally Posted by kell490

I haven't really paid much attention to this Proposition I knew it was for schools I got my ballot yesterday in the mail. The way it's worded on the ballot "3.5% increase in tax anyone making more then 250k a year, or 500k married" probably will pass. Arizona is tired of seeing ours schools show up at the bottom of rating list.

Unfortunately, Arizona voters have a VERY long history of taking a "What's in it for me?" approach to voting. And with a large senior population, that has meant generally negative outcomes for things like schools. The irony is that a well educated populace DOES ultimately benefit everyone, regardless of whether you have kids in schools or not. But you'd be wasting your breath trying to explain that to the average voter. Hopefully, as demographics continue to change, we will begin to see more support for common sense/public good propositions like this.

[Bondurant]

So Arizona should spend more just like the states that spend more and still want more money "for the children"? I will be voting "no".

[boofreakinhoo]

Originally Posted by kell490

I haven't really paid much attention to this Proposition I knew it was for schools I got my ballot yesterday in the mail. The way it's worded on the ballot "3.5% increase in tax anyone making more then 250k a year, or 500k married" probably will pass. Arizona is tired of seeing ours schools show up at the bottom of rating list.

And when you break it down, $8k, or 17k to a couple, is not going to break the bank for those of us making that kind of money. My spouse and I make over 250k, but are no where near the 500k mark, and quite comfortably drop several thousand on home projects, vacations, etc. If we were to double our incomes, I doubt I would even notice. The other poster mentions that hopefully people understand the social good in these types of initiatives. I think there are still a large number of folks who point to waste, even when they say they have cut spending, so unclear what all this "waste" is. There are even some on this forum that think if they send their children to private school they shouldn't have to pay taxes. /shrug

[wit-nit]

These school tax props have been proposed time after time and the ones that pass the money is never used as intended. It never filters down to a reasonable pay for the teachers. Those props that pass the money generally ends up in administration pockets and some frills but not to the ones that need it the most. That is reason teachers are always complaining about pay raises and having to buy their own student materials for the classrooms.

[kell490]

Originally Posted by wit-nit

These school tax props have been proposed time after time and the ones that pass the money is never used as intended. It never filters down to a reasonable pay for the teachers. Those props that pass the money generally ends up in administration pockets and some frills but not to the ones that need it the most. That is reason teachers are always complaining about pay raises and having to buy their own student materials for the classrooms.

I see Wallet hub still rated Arizona schools 3rd from the bottom only above Louisiana, and New Mexico. How ever they need to improve it has to be improved.

https://wallethub.com/edu/e/states-w...#main-findings

[AZ Manager]

Wallethub's rating system isn't about school performance. They include things like teacher salary, how safe kids feel, and all sorts of other bull (seriously go read their score breakdown). Fact is AZ spends near the least per pupil and we perform at or very slightly below the national average in reading, math, science, you name it. All that with a fairly sizable chunk of the population living in poverty, high teenage pregnancy rates, and an oddly high student incarceration rate (also criteria wallet hub uses btw) and a slew of other non-teacher related problems. Is it the schools job to keep kids out of jail? I don't think so yet wallethub seems to.

Wallethub is a joke of a metric:

State Statute on Out of School Access to Instructional Materials
School Safety Plan Requirement
School Safety Audit Requirement
Presence of Adopted and Enacted Laws Regulating Mandatory School Resource Officers
State Guidance on Accessible Technologies

Not if schools do this on their own but if there is a law requiring it.

High School Graduation Rate Among Low-Income Students

Just low income students...

Presence of Public Schools in “Top 700 Best U.S. Schools”

That list is also heavily biased with these same crap metrics.

Dropout Rate

This isn't a teacher problem it is a parent problem. In lower income areas kids drop out for all sorts of reasons not school related.

Median SAT Score: Double Weight (~7.27 Points)
Median ACT Score: Double Weight (~7.27 Points)

Because one entry for both isn't enough. Also, pushing kids into debt is the only thing that matters. This alone is worth almost 15% of the total ranking.

Division of SAT Results by Percentile: Full Weight (~3.64 Points)
Division of ACT Results by Percentile: Full Weight (~3.64 Points)

Another 7% for what is almost the same thing as above bringing this to almost 22% of the total.

Share of Children Whose Parents Agree Their Children Go to Safe Schools
Share of High School Students with Access to Illegal Drugs
Share of High School Students Participating in Violence
Youth Incarceration Rate

What do any of these have to do with school performance?

[kell490]

Originally Posted by AZ Manager

Wallethub's rating system isn't about school performance. They include things like teacher salary, how safe kids feel, and all sorts of other bull (seriously go read their score breakdown). Fact is AZ spends near the least per pupil and we perform at or very slightly below the national average in reading, math, science, you name it. All that with a fairly sizable chunk of the population living in poverty, high teenage pregnancy rates, and an oddly high student incarceration rate (also criteria wallet hub uses btw) and a slew of other non-teacher related problems. Is it the schools job to keep kids out of jail? I don't think so yet wallethub seems to.

Wallethub is a joke of a metric:



Not if schools do this on their own but if there is a law requiring it.



Just low income students...



That list is also heavily biased with these same crap metrics.



This isn't a teacher problem it is a parent problem. In lower income areas kids drop out for all sorts of reasons not school related.



Because one entry for both isn't enough. Also, pushing kids into debt is the only thing that matters. This alone is worth almost 15% of the total ranking.



Another 7% for what is almost the same thing as above bringing this to almost 22% of the total.



What do any of these have to do with school performance?

Here is another one Arizona 44 out of 50 from the bottom. People and business's look at these things when they decide where to move. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...cation/prek-12

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by banger

Actually, The voters are tired of seeing their money packed down a bottomless rathole.

Want to impress the voters.... try in classroom teaching.

And, if we tax "the rich", that's the same as free.... Right?

The ones who actually use the public education system are the ones who should pay all of the taxes, regardless of how much their annual income is. This especially applies to the moochers who use the system as free babysitting for their offspring. Nothing in life is "free", and some people's attitudes about schools being a benefit to everybody is disgusting. Public schools don't benefit me at all ... in fact, all they do is drain my wallet for thousands of dollars every year in property taxes, and I get nothing in return.

Originally Posted by Maroon197

Unfortunately, Arizona voters have a VERY long history of taking a "What's in it for me?" approach to voting. And with a large senior population, that has meant generally negative outcomes for things like schools. The irony is that a well educated populace DOES ultimately benefit everyone, regardless of whether you have kids in schools or not. But you'd be wasting your breath trying to explain that to the average voter. Hopefully, as demographics continue to change, we will begin to see more support for common sense/public good propositions like this.

Actually, Arizona has a long history of voting FOR these education propositions. Practically every ballot initiative in this regard has been approved by the voters over the last 20 years, and that should be a strong indication to you that we need to quit this nonsense of throwing more money at the beast. We keep raising taxes for schools, but still get the same results. If you personally would like to contribute more of your money to education, knock yourself out, but please don't force everybody else to do so ... especially those who don't use the school system!

Originally Posted by Bondurant

So Arizona should spend more just like the states that spend more and still want more money "for the children"? I will be voting "no".

I always vote the opposite on anything that claims to be "for the children" or will "protect children". I don't have kids, and other people's "precious darlings" are not my responsibility. If parents are not able or willing to raise, support, and protect their children on their own, then they have no business being parents in the first place.

[roadwarrior101]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

T
I always vote the opposite on anything that claims to be "for the children" or will "protect children". I don't have kids, and other people's "precious darlings" are not my responsibility. If parents are not able or willing to raise, support, and protect their children on their own, then they have no business being parents in the first place.

So, you think parents are just qualified to teach all the instruction that kids learn at schools? Somehow, they magically develop all the skills/education they need to succeed in life as our future leaders? Does it not matter to you that poorly funded schools statistically lead to worse outcomes in life, which directly impact our success as a society?

Or is it that you are old and bitter and probably won't be alive that much longer anyway, so you don't care on the long-term affects to society?

[kell490]

How are other states able to manage their school systems better. The top 10 are high tax states there are some heavy Republican states which seem to have better rated schools. Kansas is rated 15, Montana, and Missouri are rated 20 and 21 on this rating system. Why is it Arizona is always at the bottom of all these list which use different metrics. IMO our elected officials have failed now were left with blunt instruments like a preposition to attempt to solve it.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...cation/prek-12