Proposition 208 (Phoenix: apartment, credit, public school)

[Burning Madolf]

Originally Posted by kell490

Easy fix if you don't want to pay property tax for schools move to 55 and older community. I plan to do that not there yet but a few more years and I can. Wife and I never had kids, but I'm not so upset about paying for schools property tax in Arizona is low when you compare to other states.

I you do that, make sure the community doesn't pay the tax.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by kell490

This is why I don't understand how other states are able to manage their schools better what are they doing. AZ doesn't have to be in the top 10 highest taxed states, but somewhere in the middle would be just fine with me. Does Montana, Utah, and a few other states have higher tax? AZ needs to figure this problem out. Just throwing money at it probalby won't fix it, but I don't know what those other states spend on their schools.

Arizona consistently ranking at the bottom is embarrassing, but I'm pretty sure public education isn't any better in those other states. The entire system is bloated & mis managed on a national level. Worse yet, the local school districts are basically affiliates of the Department of Education. We pay school taxes on a federal, state, and local level through various sources, which puts education at the top as far as expenditures ... yet, the liberals keep whining about how we're not spending enough, and they claim that people who are opposed to tax hikes are "bitter", "selfish", etc. Continuously tossing in more money only strengthens the beast, and doesn't improve the quality. We've seen the proof with all the other education initiatives passed by the voters over the last 20 years.

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

You're making a sweeping generalization that just because your parents were able to afford to send you to private education that everyone else should be able to do so. Do you know the financial situation of everyone else? Is the reason why many people cannot afford private schools because they're all spending money frivolously on gadgets? How about those that are having to work 2 jobs just to pay the rent, utilities and put some food on the table? Are you saying that they're not entitled to a quality education? Or are you saying that they should go hungry or live on the street so that they can afford the right to provide a better future for their children?

I swear, the Republicans like to throw this term elitist around but they are exuding these behaviors themselves in their views and actions.

If they're struggling so much with their finances, why are they procreating in the first place? Having kids is like anything else: if you can't afford it on your terms, you have no business having it ... just like having a mortgage, expensive cars, a boat, etc. None of these things are Constitutional rights. Every child should be getting a quality education, which is why I favor private schools because their educational standards are far superior in comparison. You can't possibly put public schools and quality in the same sentence without getting a hearty laugh in response. By the way, I'm not a Republican, but what does that matter anyway?

[roadwarrior101]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

If they're struggling so much with their finances, why are they procreating in the first place? Having kids is like anything else: if you can't afford it on your terms, you have no business having it ... just like having a mortgage, expensive cars, a boat, etc. None of these things are Constitutional rights. Every child should be getting a quality education, which is why I favor private schools because their educational standards are far superior in comparison. You can't possibly put public schools and quality in the same sentence without getting a hearty laugh in response. By the way, I'm not a Republican, but what does that matter anyway?

Sure, the parents shouldn't have procreated but how is the fault of the child? Are you saying these kids (from no fault of their own) shouldn't be given any additional support for a good education? You've made your point on private schools, but if many people can't afford it, it doesn't change the fact that these kids are doomed from the start, due to the lack of a social safety net.

Well, if you're not Republican, your responses sound very much like they are. Self reliance. Who needs government anyway? Unfettered capitalism. Whoo haa!

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

Sure, the parents shouldn't have procreated but how is the fault of the child? Are you saying these kids (from no fault of their own) shouldn't be given any additional support for a good education? You've made your point on private schools, but if many people can't afford it, it doesn't change the fact that these kids are doomed from the start, due to the lack of a social safety net.

It's unfortunate, but not everybody gets a fair deal. That's part of life. Quite frankly, it's not my problem if somebody's offspring came from a household of incompetent breeders who don't have a clue on how to manage money or raise children. Safety nets have become a societal norm, and they really should only be a temporary form of assistance. Permanent safety nets decrease initiative, create laziness, and increase reliance on the government. There are numerous charities that are dedicated to helping families in need, and many more that cater exclusively to children's welfare. I'm much more in favor of private donations through charitable organizations than everybody's tax dollars sucked into a black hole.

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

Well, if you're not Republican, your responses sound very much like they are. Self reliance. Who needs government anyway? Unfettered capitalism. Whoo haa!

I'm Libertarian, which means that I'm actually more conservative than many Republicans on fiscal matters, but I tend to be liberal on the personal issues that have become politicized over the years (abortion, marriage, marijuana, etc.).

[wase4711]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

Well, if you're not Republican, your responses sound very much like they are. Self reliance. Who needs government anyway? Unfettered capitalism. Whoo haa!

whats wrong with being self reliant?

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by wase4711

whats wrong with being self reliant?

Nothing, but you should acknowledge that we’re all in this together and you benefit from social welfare and public programs. Education is important because to have a real economy you need educated workers (benefitting you in the long run)

I personally don’t mind my money going to schools even though I’m childless, but I want there to be a net gain for doing it. I benefit from other educated people and a stronger economy. Phoenix being a back office real estate based economy for decades correlated with its low educational attainment level. It’s improved, but it’s a big part of the problem. Why would any higher end employer move here if the skilled worker base is weak.

[wase4711]

of course education is important, but there isnt much proof that the more money you throw at schools, the more educated students become.

if parent dont inspire/motivate their chldren to WANT to be smarter, even if we double the $$$ we give to the education system, we'll still end up with more "back office" workers, than we will have Engineers...

While we're throwing more $$$ at schools, can we please institute drivers education out here for the high school kids, to help educate/train the moronic imbecilles who infest our roadways everywhere?

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

Education is important because to have a real economy you need educated workers (benefitting you in the long run)

Couldn't agree more that education is important for a productive economy. The conflict is where the funding should come from. Parents with kids in the public system need to take responsibility and pay more on their end. Too many of them expect special entitlements just because they have kids. Soaking the taxpayers regardless of income level is wrong on so many levels.

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

I personally don’t mind my money going to schools even though I’m childless, but I want there to be a net gain for doing it. I benefit from other educated people and a stronger economy. Phoenix being a back office real estate based economy for decades correlated with its low educational attainment level. It’s improved, but it’s a big part of the problem. Why would any higher end employer move here if the skilled worker base is weak.

Even if we increased public education spending 20 times over, what guarantee would there be of Arizona attracting more educated & highly skilled people? Phoenix is little more than a back office regional hub because of its economic focus ... not because of school funding. For decades, we've pushed the sun, the warm weather, the recreation as reasons to move here. That alone tends to attract a lower caliber. We still focus too heavily on those things, even though metro Phoenix is now in the same population rank as Boston, Atlanta, and the Bay Area. You can increase school funding all you want, but it won't make much difference at all in the type of employers or transplants we get until we ACT more like a city our size.

Originally Posted by wase4711

of course education is important, but there isnt much proof that the more money you throw at schools, the more educated students become.

if parent dont inspire/motivate their chldren to WANT to be smarter, even if we double the $$$ we give to the education system, we'll still end up with more "back office" workers, than we will have Engineers...

Exactly!

[kell490]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

It's unfortunate, but not everybody gets a fair deal. That's part of life. Quite frankly, it's not my problem if somebody's offspring came from a household of incompetent breeders who don't have a clue on how to manage money or raise children. Safety nets have become a societal norm, and they really should only be a temporary form of assistance. Permanent safety nets decrease initiative, create laziness, and increase reliance on the government. There are numerous charities that are dedicated to helping families in need, and many more that cater exclusively to children's welfare. I'm much more in favor of private donations through charitable organizations than everybody's tax dollars sucked into a black hole.



I'm Libertarian, which means that I'm actually more conservative than many Republicans on fiscal matters, but I tend to be liberal on the personal issues that have become politicized over the years (abortion, marriage, marijuana, etc.).

The public school funding is not the same across the board. Public schools in Scottsdale get more money per student then public schools in South Phoenix.

The 1973 San Antonio Independent School District v. Rodriguez The court ruled that the U.S. Constitution does not guarantee equal school funding because the Constitution. This is why bonds in wealthy areas of town can direct money from property tax of those areas to their public schools. In effect creating a private school quality while still getting Public money from state and federal taxes. The school in South Phoenix gets the lowest funding per student since values are lower on property people can't afford lot more tax.

What I would like to see is the Governor create a panel of experts who can analyze what other states have done to improve their schools implement those same process's. There will always be unequal money spent but ratings of our schools should average somewhere in the middle. Until the Governor, and legislature fix the internal problems in our schools we will continue to see these proposition like 208.

My wife is against prop 208 her reason was look how hard someone worked to get to that level of annual income such as a doctor. Should be burdened with unequal tax? These attacks on upper classes have their downside business owners might move to other states and don't really resolve the issues.

Originally Posted by Burning Madolf

I you do that, make sure the community doesn't pay the tax.

I was reading there has been attempts by schools to tax Sun City not exactly sure some say SCW does get taxed by schools.

[marinezac]

If prop 208 passes it would move us into the top ten highest taxes states? Is that true? So basically we wouldn’t attract any higher income people here anymore I’m guessing.