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You do realize Singapore has 7M people, smaller than New York City alone?
What does population have to do with it? Israel has nearly 8M people for the whole country and yet it produced around a dozen Nobel laureates. If Singapore is really so great in science and math, I could understand if it can produce "a few". But not a single one? Come on.
What does population have to do with it? Israel has nearly 8M people for the whole country and yet it produced around a dozen Nobel laureates. If Singapore is really so great in science and math, I could understand if it can produce "a few". But not a single one? Come on.
LOL. If you do check the bio of those people, most of them practically are Americans. I won't count those "Peace Prize" since it has nothing to do with one's "achievement".
Well, Israel in my mind is practically part of America.
LOL. If you do check the bio of those people, most of them practically are Americans. I won't count those "Peace Prize" since it has nothing to do with one's "achievement".
Well, Israel in my mind is practically part of America.
LOL! They have 6 in science and one in economics. How did you derive your conclusion that Israel is "part of America" and it has anything to do with excellence in science?
Luxembourg has 2 laureates - one in medicine and another in physics - and they have a pop of half a million. Is Luxembourg part of America?
Netherlands has a pop of 17m and they have 17 science and economics laureates. Part of America also?
New Zealand has a population of 4 million and it has 3.
Singapore? Zero. Yup, for all that's been said about it all they have to show is nothing but an egg. If Singapore produced a couple, I would have agreed with you. But it literally has not produced a single one.
Your logic that population size can help win but a single Nobel prize in science does not add up.
LOL! They have 6 in science and one in economics. How did you derive your conclusion that Israel is "part of America" and it has anything to do with excellence in science?
Luxembourg has 2 laureates - one in medicine and another in physics - and they have a pop of half a million. Is Luxembourg part of America?
Netherlands has a pop of 17m and they have 17 science and economics laureates. Part of America also?
New Zealand has a population of 4 million and it has 3.
Singapore? Zero. Yup, for all that's been said about it all they have to show is nothing but an egg.
Your logic that population size can help win but a single Nobel prize in science does not add up.
Singapore didn't become an independent country until 1965 (its population is 5.5M, not 7M by the way).
Luxemburg:
Gabriel Lippmann won the prize in 1908, and he has dual citizenship of Luxemburg and France, and received his education in France. Jules A. Hoffmann is also dual citizen of Luxemburg and France and graduated from a French university.
They may not be Americans, but they are definitely French.
New Zealand:
Alan G. MacDiarmid: received this post graduate education in the US, did research in the US and still lives in the US.
Ernest Rutherford: also UK citizen. Lived in the UK most of life and died in Cambridge, UK
Maurice Wilkins: also British. He lived in NZ only before he was 6 years old.
The fact these people were born in Luxemburg and NZ doesn't really mean their Nobel Price has anything to do with local education, does it? The prizes pretty much are from UK, France and the US.
LOL! So now it's not just America but the UK and France. OK, following your logic, why can't those so called well educated Singaporeans matriculate in Cambridge, Technion or MIT for their doctoral studies and win something notable in science from there?
Let's face it. At the end of the day, Singapore is pretty mediocre in the sciences and its only claim to fame are test scores that don't seem to lead to anywhere exceptional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
Singapore didn't become an independent country until 1965
Israel is similarly a postwar country yet it is miles away from Singapore in science and math achievement. Even if you wait 20 years, Singapore won't be in the same league.
LOL! So now it's not just America but the UK and France. OK, following your logic, why can't those so called well educated Singaporeans matriculate in Cambridge, Technion or MIT for their doctoral studies and win something notable in science from there?
Let's face it. At the end of the day, Singapore is pretty mediocre in the sciences and its only claim to fame are test scores that don't seem to lead to anywhere exceptional.
Israel is similarly a postwar country yet it is miles away from Singapore in science and math achievement. Even if you wait 20 years, Singapore won't be in the same league.
I think the post is about average achievements/skills of students, not geniuses.
Most Singaporeans were not wealthy 3 generations back. Many Jews have been affluent for many generations. Not to mention Jews lived in western countries and received better training to be scientists. They are westerners de facto. Academia is also a field of "connections". If you are advised by some famous guy, you are more likely to find a good position and conduct good research. Asian students often lack the connections even if they study in the west.
On the other hand, Asian schools push average students the most and the truly gifted ones do not really benefit much. In the US, it is another story.
Which means the PISA top 5 doesn't really tell us much about actual achievement in math, science and engineering. Not sure about Asians lacking connectios since both Japan and India produced science awardees.
It's one thing to get a good test score. It's another to translate it into something notable in real life.
Which means the PISA top 5 doesn't really tell us much about actual achievement in math, science and engineering. Not sure about Asians lacking connectios since both Japan and India produced science awardees.
It's one thing to get a good test score. It's another to translate it into something notable in real life.
PISA is about skills of high school students. It is very clear.
I don't know why you mentioned "achievement in math, science, and engineering" at all. It demands a lot more to become a PhD in those fields. Many gifted Chinese students cannot afford so much time in graduate school because they have a family to support, for example.
I have lived in China and America, and I am 100% sure average Chinese people do have better math skills than average Americans. Do you know many college students in the US cannot even solve quadratic equations? In China they could not even graduate from middle school (9th grade). It's only because Chinese schools are way much more pushy.
PISA is about skills of high school students. It is very clear.
I don't know why you mentioned "achievement in math, science, and engineering" at all. It demands a lot more to become a PhD in those fields. Many gifted Chinese students cannot afford so much time in graduate school because they have a family to support, for example.
I have lived in China and America, and I am 100% sure average Chinese people do have better math skills than average Americans. Do you know many college students in the US cannot even solve quadratic equations? In China they could not even graduate from middle school (9th grade). It's only because Chinese schools are way much more pushy.
Yes I know that PISA measures the skills of HS students. All I'm saying is that these tests are pretty much worthless if you can't translate it to something exceptional in real life. You can tout Singaporeans' success in PISA math but what's the point if they haven't accomplished anything notable related to the field? The issue then becomes nothing but a talking point. Raise the obvious point and the only retort the proponent can give is "Well we're only talking about test scores here..." Nothing - absolutely nothing.
And while "many college students in the US cannot even solve quadratic equations" (your words), there are also many who can and they are enough to meet the needs of the country. MIT, CalTech end the likes get more applicants than available slots. Nobody cares about the ones who cannot solve quadratic equations.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 02-26-2014 at 12:53 PM..
Nobel Laureates don't mean anything. One brilliant person is not a representation of the aggregate of the country.
Another thing I'm critical of is how intelligence is measured. It's a combination of processing speed, memory, and abstraction. Some of this is genetic, some of it is education. Also, some of it doesn't show up on test scores for math, but might show up somewhere else. Look at MBTI types. Not all of them are equally good at math, but more importantly, not all types see math in the same way.
The most important thing for education worldwide is to get people interested in it. If people want to learn, they can educate themselves through the internet as well as make institutionalized education much more effective.
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