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as late as the 1930s, the Chinese didn't even know where the Spratlys are. when France tried to annex them, the Chinese consul in Manila had to ask American authorities where is the location and when they pointed where are they, he was satisfied that is was not part of Chinas territory. (these are all in the archives)
so all that historical claim they are spouting are just garbage. they never thought that outside China, people have all the data they need to have informed opinion
You didn't really answer the question i posted when i started this thread.........
Whether or not the Philippines was a country back then is not really relevant. The Philippines claim is that part of the Spratlys are inside its exclusive economic zone as defined in international law.
Could you advise would the Philippines have the same level of objection if the US did the same? Just curious.
^ well, the US and Philippines have close ties all the way through and are pretty good friends. If they did such a thing, itd probably be either at the Philippines' request, or at the very least, with its blessing. If they just swept in and took it, no doubt the Philippines wouldn't be happy but at the same time, it would be a claim by an ally who is far from belligerent, so I doubt you'd see the same level of outrage.
As far as the issue itself goes... I'm an american but I lI've in China... I'm marrying a Chinese girl and will get permanent residency here from that. I love it here, but that said, I don't really have a dog in the fight.
I think its pretty clear that it belongs to the Philippines.
^ well, the US and Philippines have close ties all the way through and are pretty good friends. If they did such a thing, itd probably be either at the Philippines' request, or at the very least, with its blessing. If they just swept in and took it, no doubt the Philippines wouldn't be happy but at the same time, it would be a claim by an ally who is far from belligerent, so I doubt you'd see the same level of outrage.
As far as the issue itself goes... I'm an american but I lI've in China... I'm marrying a Chinese girl and will get permanent residency here from that. I love it here, but that said, I don't really have a dog in the fight.
I think its pretty clear that it belongs to the Philippines.
At last, someone whom properly answered the question....
I think some of you were discussing about Spratly Islands, Scarborough Shoal is not part of former, but both are being claimed by China and the Philippines. I'd like also to correct the TS that there was no outpost built by China on Scarborough Shoal. Only concrete blocks(by China) were spotted at the shoal, but no structure was built.
If the US will build an outpost on Scarborough Shoal, of course there will be no concern or worry by south-east nations because only the Philippines has the claim among them. Philippines will feel secure because US is their ally. But i doubt building a US outpost on Scarborough will be happening.
Historically speaking, the Philippines has the clear claim on Scarborough Shoal. Historical claims by China are vague IMO. I will not provide you some examples because they are all over here on the internet. I suggest you read the wikipedia page of Scarborough Shoal. Yeah, i know it's wikipedia, but i think the references provided on the page were credible enough. And the good thing is it's not one sided.
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My opinion about Spartly Islands maybe different though. And btw, latest news say that China is building a huge structure the size of one of the world's biggest malls on one of the islands. And continuously reclaiming other islands in Spratly.
Are you all seriously? China a threat? Just check out the most recent news along the Sino-Burmese border, where the Burmese just killed a bunch of Chinese on China's side of the border, and China is only "demanding" that Burma investigates? What you should really worry is China falling apart instead.
If this happened along the Mexican-US border, the US would have flattened several Mexican towns by now. All I see of this so called "China threat" is a gigantic and heavily polluted country with s flabby and weak government which is so afraid of its own people, so incompetent and so afraid to take any initiative. China is barely staying together with so much problems within its border that it can't even deal effectively with the Burmeses, let alone take control of the SCS. Are you serious? Corruption and serious flaws in its outdated command and control structure make the Chinese military nothing more than a money sucking machine for a bunch of fat Chinese generals who care only about face and fake military drills and goose stepping parades that don't mean anything of substance. China can put on a huge and fake military parade, but it can't even protect its own people along the Burmese border (Burma has one of the weakest military power in the world, no less). China is embarrassingly incompetent, and you are worry about it taking over the SCS? Really?
Are you all seriously? China a threat? Just check out the most recent news along the Sino-Burmese border, where the Burmese just killed a bunch of Chinese on China's side of the border, and China is only "demanding" that Burma investigates? What you should really worry is China falling apart instead.
If this happened along the Mexican-US border, the US would have flattened several Mexican towns by now. All I see of this so called "China threat" is a gigantic and heavily polluted country with s flabby and weak government which is so afraid of its own people, so incompetent and so afraid to take any initiative. China is barely staying together with so much problems within its border that it can't even deal effectively with the Burmeses, let alone take control of the SCS. Are you serious? Corruption and serious flaws in its outdated command and control structure make the Chinese military nothing more than a money sucking machine for a bunch of fat Chinese generals who care only about face and fake military drills and goose stepping parades that don't mean anything of substance. China can put on a huge and fake military parade, but it can't even protect its own people along the Burmese border (Burma has one of the weakest military power in the world, no less). China is embarrassingly incompetent, and you are worry about it taking over the SCS? Really?
If it happened on the US-Mexican border and the US flattened several Mexican towns, that means it would have flattened several towns in neighboring a country it actually cooperates quite a bit with on a variety of fronts, including its military... no, if that happened, the US would probably do about the same that China did to Myanmar: summon their diplomat, issue some very terse warnings publicly, and then step up the military presence along the border. There would be a hell of a lot more public outrage and of course a lot of people calling for the US to go flatten them, but cooler heads would prevail.
Just because China hadn't been acting belligerently nor had managed to successfully deter Burmese jets from flying into its territory and has issues with graft and ineptitude domestically doesn't mean that they are incapable of acting belligerently or as a threat to other nations in totally different circumstances.
If it happened on the US-Mexican border and the US flattened several Mexican towns, that means it would have flattened several towns in neighboring a country it actually cooperates quite a bit with on a variety of fronts, including its military... no, if that happened, the US would probably do about the same that China did to Myanmar: summon their diplomat, issue some very terse warnings publicly, and then step up the military presence along the border. There would be a hell of a lot more public outrage and of course a lot of people calling for the US to go flatten them, but cooler heads would prevail.
Just because China hadn't been acting belligerently nor had managed to successfully deter Burmese jets from flying into its territory and has issues with graft and ineptitude domestically doesn't mean that they are incapable of acting belligerently or as a threat to other nations in totally different circumstances.
That's BS. The Chinese are so weak and all they really care about is face. I just watched a Chinese CCTV News segment where the commentator was explaining the Chinese defence dept's phone call to the Burmese warning them with the four "Yen" characters....the Burmese are supposed to do this and do that, otherwise the Chinese military will take "resolute actions." Yeah, right! It's all Chinese BS to placate the rising tide of Chinese netizens who are calling for punitive actions, but they will be disappointed. The Burmese are probably laughing in Yangon right now. The reality is that the Chinese military and government would never dare to attack anyone for anything. All they want to do is to appear like they care about the protection of sovereignty. They are in fact so incompetent and weakened by corruption that they can't even defend the border against those old Burmese warplanes flying into Chinese airspace. The war along the border between the Burmese gov forces and those ethnic militias have been raging for months, and you mean to tell me that the Chinese border forces have not been tightened? Isn't the PLA supposed to defend the lives and properties of Chinese nationals? And you are all here worrying about Chinese construction on those little reefs? If the Chinese air force can't even deter Burmese planes along a land border, how do you think it can supply and defend those military bases so far in the SCS? What a joke. China is a gigantic paper tiger that's good at putting on military parades. It like the late Qing all over again.
By the way, I am of Nordic descent and I studied Chinese history during grad school days. I speak and understand fluent Mandarin and read Chinese.
That's BS. The Chinese are so weak and all they really care about is face. I just watched a Chinese CCTV News segment where the commentator was explaining the Chinese defence dept's phone call to the Burmese warning them with the four "Yen" characters....the Burmese are supposed to do this and do that, otherwise the Chinese military will take "resolute actions." Yeah, right! It's all Chinese BS to placate the rising tide of Chinese netizens who are calling for punitive actions, but they will be disappointed. The Burmese are probably laughing in Yangon right now. The reality is that the Chinese military and government would never dare to attack anyone for anything. All they want to do is to appear like they care about the protection of sovereignty. They are in fact so incompetent and weakened by corruption that they can't even defend the border against those old Burmese warplanes flying into Chinese airspace. The war along the border between the Burmese gov forces and those ethnic militias have been raging for months, and you mean to tell me that the Chinese border forces have not been tightened? Isn't the PLA supposed to defend the lives and properties of Chinese nationals? And you are all here worrying about Chinese construction on those little reefs? If the Chinese air force can't even deter Burmese planes along a land border, how do you think it can supply and defend those military bases so far in the SCS? What a joke. China is a gigantic paper tiger that's good at putting on military parades. It like the late Qing all over again.
I'm juxtaposing this rant over your past China boosting and not sure what to make of it...
Quote:
By the way, I am of Nordic descent and I studied Chinese history during grad school days. I speak and understand fluent Mandarin and read Chinese.
Cool. I'm of Swedish descent and studied Chinese history for some time, though on my own and not in an academic setting. I'm learning Mandarin as I go, living here... I'll probably be here indefinitely as my now-fiance, as of a few days ago, is Chinese and has no desire to leave.
I view China with the same overall pragmatism I view my home country, though admittedly with an outsider's criticism. There are plenty of things I can find to criticize about China's government, culture, etc. though I take the good with the bad. I fail to see how any nation acting with restraint when an accident that was likely the ineptitude of one individual military person is a sign of "weakness." To wage a retaliatory strike that would similarly result in civilian deaths - though almost certainly in higher numbers - is just about as short sighted as one can get.
Now, if the Myanmar military started making incursions and regular strikes and the Chinese simply demanded them to stop, that would be another matter...
I'm juxtaposing this rant over your past China boosting and not sure what to make of it...
Multiple personalities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k
I'll probably be here indefinitely as my now-fiance, as of a few days ago, is Chinese and has no desire to leave.
And congratulations on the engagement!
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