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How is it different from the horrifying things people have done to other people in the name of Nazism? Patriotism? In the name of Westernization? Of crime prevention? In the name of finding chemical weapons? Nazism was not prosecuted in Nuremberg, those individuals who actually did the crime were. To set aside all this history and go back to religion is not ignorance but fundamentalism.
Are you saying that all those regular German people getting swept up in the cult of Nazism, was a bit like the cult of a religion? Yeah, I totally agree.
You made my point for me, on that one. Ideas can be powerful, and can be harmful. The ideas and the Nazi ideology was definitely a crucial and key part of what led to the events of WW2 and the Holocaust. It wasn't just a random group of unconnected individuals all simultaneously deciding to become psycho on their own.
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Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
There is no excuse for murder and torture; it’s not as if religion allows one a ‘get out of jail free card’. You’re either psycho enough to kill someone and/or derive pleasure from harming someone - or you’re not.
At the end of the day, it’s more about political control than religion or atheism i.e. one group knows what’s best for all of us (and wages war on the other). Consider those who bomb churches and mosques in this country. Since you believe religion to be somehow accountable, then you must conclude atheism is as well. We both know that’s ludicrous, but you can’t have it (only) one way to fit your narrative.
Hatred and a lack of acceptance is a two-way street.
Whatever you're saying, it still makes no sense. There's no such thing as harmful ideas? All possible ideas are exactly equal in every way? Really?
You have blinders on, if you can't see that the power of bad ideas enable much of the violence. If you can't see that cults are harmful. If you can't see that harmful beliefs, that people believing in harmful beliefs, that organizing around that belief, can result in otherwise normal people causing harm and violence, you are just totally deluding yourself.
You have blinders on, if you can't see that the power of bad ideas enable much of the violence. If you can't see that cults are harmful. If you can't see that harmful beliefs, that people believing in harmful beliefs, that organizing around that belief, can result in otherwise normal people causing harm and violence, you are just totally deluding yourself.
You have blinders on if you think there aren’t those on both sides of the fence who do harm in the name of political control and power in this country. Hence the point of the First Amendment. (Btw, I note you completely ignored my comment re: those who bomb churches and mosques.) Again, we indict persons relative to crime - not religion or atheism.
That said, cults do not have the same legal protections if they infringe on the rights of others i.e. some are actually recognized as criminal organizations.
You have blinders on if you think there aren’t those on both sides of the fence who do harm in the name of political control and power in this country. Hence the point of the First Amendment. (Btw, I note you completely ignored my comment re: those who bomb churches and mosques.) Again, we indict persons relative to crime - not religion or atheism.
That said, cults do not have the same legal protections if they infringe on the rights of others i.e. some are actually recognized as criminal organizations.
I'm not talking about this country. I'm not talking about the US constitution or legal concepts of protected groups, or any of that stuff.
And of course we indict persons for a crime committed, and for not their beliefs. That's completely unrelated to the point I'm making. The point is that beliefs clearly can be involved in people's actions and the reasons they took those actions. Ideas and beliefs can influence a person's actions. Groups and societies organized around those ideas and beliefs, can influence a person's actions. Etc.
Cults, are groups of people who are devoted to their often harmful ideas.
You seem to not understand what I'm saying, about the fundamental relationship between ideas and actions.
Again I have to bring up 9/11. There's no way that goes down like that, without the martyrdom and afterlife belief.
I mean, they shout their religious phrases when they're doing their suicide bombings and such.
I'm not talking about this country. I'm not talking about the US constitution or legal concepts of protected groups, or any of that stuff.
And of course we indict persons for a crime committed, and for not their beliefs. That's completely unrelated to the point I'm making. The point is that beliefs clearly can be involved in people's actions and the reasons they took those actions. Ideas and beliefs can influence a person's actions. Groups and societies organized around those ideas and beliefs, can influence a person's actions. Etc.
Cults, are groups of people who are devoted to their often harmful ideas.
You seem to not understand what I'm saying, about the fundamental relationship between ideas and actions.
Again I have to bring up 9/11. There's no way that goes down like that, without the martyrdom and afterlife belief.
I mean, they shout their religious phrases when they're doing their suicide bombings and such.
The They that you are so worried about, Muslims, live in every Democratic secular country and obey the laws. the problem lie with state and geo politics. not with muslims. perhaps you can read books other than by sam harris and get a wider perspective
You have blinders on if you think there aren’t those on both sides of the fence who do harm in the name of political control and power in this country. Hence the point of the First Amendment. (Btw, I note you completely ignored my comment re: those who bomb churches and mosques.) Again, we indict persons relative to crime - not religion or atheism.
That said, cults do not have the same legal protections if they infringe on the rights of others i.e. some are actually recognized as criminal organizations.
I'm not talking about this country. I'm not talking about the US constitution or legal concepts of protected groups, or any of that stuff.
And of course we indict persons for a crime committed, and for not their beliefs. That's completely unrelated to the point I'm making. The point is that beliefs clearly can be involved in people's actions and the reasons they took those actions. Ideas and beliefs can influence a person's actions. Groups and societies organized around those ideas and beliefs, can influence a person's actions. Etc.
Cults, are groups of people who are devoted to their often harmful ideas.
You seem to not understand what I'm saying, about the fundamental relationship between ideas and actions.
Again I have to bring up 9/11. There's no way that goes down like that, without the martyrdom and afterlife belief.
I mean, they shout their religious phrases when they're doing their suicide bombings and such.
I grew up in a cult and completely understand what you are saying.
I'm not talking about this country. I'm not talking about the US constitution or legal concepts of protected groups, or any of that stuff.
From my perspective, it is what should be discussed relative to the reinforcement of atheists’ rights, particularly in this current climate of far-right conservatism where religion is having a political influence.
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Originally Posted by primaltech
Again I have to bring up 9/11. There's no way that goes down like that, without the martyrdom and afterlife belief.
Al-Qaeda is not protected by the Geneva Convention; it is recognized as a (politically) criminal organization relative to its activities and acts of terrorism.
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Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
Both sides of what?
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Originally Posted by primaltech
Cults, are groups of people who are devoted to their often harmful ideas
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Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
Cults infringe plenty.
Yes - some cult activities are illegal, obviously, as is blowing up churches. Ideas aren’t harmful i.e. they aren’t (even) measurable. It is one’s behavior that is potentially harmful/actionable.
From my perspective, it is what should be discussed relative to the reinforcement of atheists’ rights, particularly in this current climate of far-right conservatism where religion is having a political influence.
Al-Qaeda is not protected by the Geneva Convention; it is recognized as a (politically) criminal organization relative to its activities and acts of terrorism.
Yes - some cult activities are illegal, obviously, as is blowing up churches. Ideas aren’t harmful i.e. they aren’t (even) measurable. It is one’s behavior that is potentially harmful/actionable.
Calling it atheists rights is a huge mistake. These are human rights if we value autonomy at all, just like sexism isn't a woman's issue or racism is a minority issue. Islam is no different from Christianity in that people have figured out a way to use it to take control of another sentient being and get them to do their bidding. These ideas are like a virus that infects the host. So some people attack the ideas and those who control them and some people are you.
Atheists (or any religious group) have rights relative to the First Amendment; hence my continual point in logically upholding such. I’m speaking relative to context, specifically the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause.
Atheists (or any religious group) have rights relative to the First Amendment; hence my continual point in logically upholding such.
Why section people off into groups? I don't think the freedom to believe as you wish without interference from the government is specifically an atheist thing.
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