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Now THIS is the way to go. Separate the semis and a lot of fatal accidents go away too
I agree, this is how the New Jersey Turnpike is arranged beginning 30 miles outside of NYC.
3 inner lanes are cars only, barrier and ground separation, outer 3 lanes are for trucks and cars if they want.
For I-285 Truck-only lanes might be better, because instead of 4 new lanes, they could just build 2 new lanes (one extra-wide lane in each direction on a single viaduct) and use platooning technology.
North Carolina's legislature is debating whether to allow truck platooning, Georgia may already allow it.
The trucks talk to each other allowing them to follow closer to each other.
This would reduce construction and cost by 50%.
REGARDING NO AVAILABLE LAND FOR ANY ADDITIONAL HWYS:
1) GDOT is planning to upgrade/widen GA20 which is a reasonable (too far out to be ideal) location for an alternate to I-285. And the NIMBYs up there are fighting it.
2)I still think a new I-75 bypass close to Alabama border should be built & it is cheap. North Carolina has built thousands of miles of brand new interstate-quality highways in the last 25 years. They are constantly applying for new interstate number designations.
3) I don't think new outer bypasses would encourage sprawl, because they would be too far out and never would be heading into the city.
4) Taking a no-new-roads or no-mass-transit position isn't constructive, and is as bad as our 2-party political dysfunction.
5) Other states build what's best for the region as a whole, and North Carolina buys out properties all the time that are in the way of their decades-long planning for the state's future.
6) NC Gas Tax revenue sets aside a percentage solely to be used for loops around its many smaller metros. Fayetteville, NC is just now getting its loop which is needed for its roughly 400,000 area population. Winston-Salem and Greensboro are getting theirs in bits and pieces, too.
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AS FAR AS PROVING ATLANTA HAS THE LEAST LANE-MILES OF FREEWAYS PER CAPITA:
a) Easily calculated multiplying number of lanes on an interstate by distance one side of metro to the other, and dividing into 5-6 million people.
b) But before going to that trouble, point another top-10 major city in America with less freeways by just looking at a map.
__________
HERE ARE THE WIDENINGS/NEW HIGHWAYS FOR RALEIGH THROUGH 2035:
Expected population in 2040: 3.2 million
Last edited by architect77; 05-19-2017 at 08:14 PM..
Are you seriously considering that mess of 45, 10 and 59/69 as the first loop around Houston? HA. Honestly I have to laugh at that. In no way could that be considered their first loop. Hell 45 separates downtown and midtown. 610 is their first true bypass.
But let's entertain the distances from downtown to route 8. For one thing, you're using "as the crow flies" distance which is a bit irrelevant as you can't drive that. The farthest major interchange of 285 is Spaghetti Junction at 14.5 miles from downtown. The closest beltway 8 interchange is on the southside with 288 at 12 miles. Next closest are I 10 on the west side and I 45 on the northside at about 13 miles. The 2nd farthest for 285? 400 at 13 miles. So basically the farthest 285 interchanges are on par with the closest 2nd loop interchanges for Houston.
The closest 285 interchange? Almost 6.5 on I 20 on the west side. The same distance as downtown Houston to 610 on the west side on I 10.
So at the closest points, 285 is comparable to 610, at the farthest, it's barely farther out than the closest loop 8 interchanges.
The actual 3rd loop of Houston is closest at Katy at about 25 miles. That nearly gets you to Old Milton Pkwy.
The current farthest is past Cypress at 32 miles. That gets you past McFarland Road in Forsyth County.
To compare the 3rd loop in Houston to 285 is just plain misleading.
My point wasn't about by passes tho that what loops can serve, my point was about loops in general freeways. My point was also addressing sprawl
Atlanta Perimeter has not exactly an oval shape but it's tallest then it's wide.
Going from Downtown to the Perimeter Center the top end is much further out than Houston's 610 loop. It's nearly same distance as going out to TX State Highway Beltway 8.
A posters said they like Carterville second loop idea here's the problem this that 37 miles from DT Atlanta. Houston itself Doesn't have an freeway loop that far out.
Houston doesn't just have loops they made better use of area. Basically Imagine having multiple loops just with Atlanta core 5 counties.
I'm not against freeways...... If leaders can construct more freeways in Metro Atlanta core counties and not disturb neighborhoods much I would be for it, I just have trouble seeing how that can be done with out a super price tag. But what I am against is building freeways in exurbs.
Let just take that in for a second.......You could "easy" tear down business and homes...... um come again?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
I'm not against freeways...... If leaders can construct more freeways in Metro Atlanta core counties and not disturb neighborhoods much I would be for it, I just have trouble seeing how that can be done with out a super price tag. But what I am against is building freeways in exurbs.
Well.. nothing would exactly be easy about it, especially with the NIMBY's here. My personal opinion is that Atlanta's freeway network is largely incomplete... Its complete enough for Atlanta and allows it to function..but thats it..there's no redundancy and there's no room for expansion. MOST major interstates or freeways in major cities though, come at a cost.. Especially cities that were more developed before the 80's. New York, Chicago, Boston, ect..all of those cities WRECKED neighborhoods, some even fairly historic to build their freeway network..see the thing is in Atlanta what I get the vibe and feeling from the locals here is that they want a grand transportation system but they don't want the costs associated with them (I don't mean financial, I mean the environmental and political impacts)... the thing is there is no..perfect answer..no perfect solution..if you do one, you have to sacrifice the other..there's no way to have the best of both worlds ESPECIALLY since Atlanta was unable to construct the network before the urban sprawl really exploded in the suburbs. If we want a better transportation system (Freeway, Mass Transit, whatever for it may come in) we have to accept there will be other side effects ... and this would be OKAY if Atlanta was only like 3 million people but it isn't.. Atlanta is a bottleneck for a good portion of the Southeast region so while its locals have learned to "deal with it" - inter-regional traffic suffers from it every day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
You also did not listen Houston is a grid Houston doesn't sprawl as wild as Atlanta, Houston density created areas to set side for freeways, this not case with Atlanta.
It is true that Houston and Atlanta developed in an entirely different fashion. But I don't know about the sprawl comment, if you mean to say that Houston (and its metro) doesn't cover as much terrain as Atlanta and its Metro..I kind of have to disagree.. Houston is suburban from Galveston (Exit 1 on I-45) to just north of Conroe (Exit 90 on I-45) .. thats 90 miles of suburban area...it shocked the ever living crap out of me when I first saw how big it was. Basically, that is the equivalent of the distance between Newnan GA and Brastleton GA on I-85...where as on I-85 its rural between Newnan and Union City and rural between Mall of GA and Braslteton... Houston is minimum 4 lanes each direction, HOV / HOT / Express lanes for the entire length and constant suburbs in that entire region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
But my larger point most east coast cities don't have a much better freeways system than Atlanta now. Sure Atlanta could need more here there but Atlanta isn't significantly behind.
The reason Atlanta looks significantly behind is because y'all are comparing Atlanta to Houston and Dallas. Houston, Dallas and LA are known for being freeway obsessive. They make not just Atlanta look behind but litteally all eastern cities.
I really have to disagree here too (no offense) While it is true that MOST of the North Eastern cities don't have dedicated outer loops (and in some cases even inner loops) MANY of them DO have REDUNDANT routes..meaning..you can take another highway and still get to the same place, many of them avoid the cities, some are tolled as well..while not dedicated bypasses..they do serve as alternatives. In Atlanta.. if you need to go from Charlotte to Montgomery... I-85 is all you get. Same goes for Knoxville to Macon, I-75 is all you get...you HAVE to go through the metro..can't take another highway where as on the flipside, in New York, if you were to go from Manhatten to Pittsburgh PA, there's about three different interstate grade highways you can take to get there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
My point wasn't about by passes tho that what loops can serve, my point was about loops in general freeways. My point was also addressing sprawl
Atlanta Perimeter has not exactly an oval shape but it's tallest then it's wide.
Going from Downtown to the Perimeter Center the top end is much further out than Houston's 610 loop. It's nearly same distance as going out to TX State Highway Beltway 8.
I really need to point out that the map you made of Atlanta, the line starts at the I-75/I-85 and I-20 interchange, which is technically just south of Downtown Atlanta..where as the map you made of Houston is smack in the middle of downtown Houston... meaning..you made more distance on the Atlanta map..
however..
I redid the distances in google maps and they came out to be a 1 mile difference (Atlanta was 12.9 miles and Houston was 13.4 miles) -
Meaning Beltway 8 is alittle over 20 miles longer than I-285.. The reason this is so is because Beltway 8 travels east and west for longer intervals on its northern and southern portions than I-285 does and because of this, Beltway 8 has a larger circumferance than I-285 does, or basically the area inside Beltway 8 IN TOTAL is larger than it is for I-285 in Atlanta..meaning overall Beltway 8 would be alittle further than I-285 (it doesn't take long to get to either side of I-285 on a day with no traffic on I-20 going through downtown..but it takes a decent amount of time going north and south.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
Houston doesn't just have loops they made better use of area. Basically Imagine having multiple loops just with Atlanta core 5 counties.
Also note, Beltway 8 is technically NOT the outer perimeter for Houston.. The real outer perimeter is still under construction.. and that is Highway 99.. currently it only goes in about half of a circle around Houston..but its planned to go mostly entirely around it..and its MUCH further than I-285 is..it would be the equivalant of GA-316 on I-85... and Houston is for the most part entirely suburban within that circumference as well. The Grand Parkway Association
Figuratively speaking..SR 99 would have been the perfect world vision of The Northern Arc..had it been built and went completely around Atlanta..
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I should also note..off subject..how we compare GA roads to TX roads and call TX roads on an entirely different level.. Texas Interstates actually kind of suck once you leave the city.. they have short onramps and offramps usually merging into TWO WAY access roads with only a yield sign stopping oncoming traffic and its onramps just throw you on with no taper into a 75 / 80 MPH speed zone.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 05-20-2017 at 12:43 AM..
I think the I-75 elevated lanes look very acceptable, the support columns underneath have a tiny bit of elegance to their shape.
And all of is ok against a green backdrop of trees.
100% disagree. They look terrible as they have these flyovers dominate the landscape. They took out a ton of trees to build it as well. There used to be a backdrop of trees....
Terrible look for Atlanta, I wish GDOT would just stop w/ these managed lanes.
My problem with the NW corridor project, is that these lanes will be somewhat useless for the first decade or so, because they won't have anywhere to go except dump out into general-purpose congestion.
Eventually, they'll be more useful in that a commuter bus will be able to access the lanes in Kennesaw in the morning, and take them all the way directly to Dunwoody MARTA (via continued managed lanes on I-285, with access ramps at Perimeter Center Pkwy), or directly to Arts Center MARTA (via continued managed lane on I-75 ITP, with HOV access ramp to a new bridge at 15th St).
When the lanes open, they won't even have access to Cumberland/Galleria at Akers Mill, as that ramp won't be ready for another couple years after.
My point wasn't about by passes tho that what loops can serve, my point was about loops in general freeways. My point was also addressing sprawl
Atlanta Perimeter has not exactly an oval shape but it's tallest then it's wide.
Going from Downtown to the Perimeter Center the top end is much further out than Houston's 610 loop. It's nearly same distance as going out to TX State Highway Beltway 8.
A posters said they like Carterville second loop idea here's the problem this that 37 miles from DT Atlanta. Houston itself Doesn't have an freeway loop that far out.
Houston doesn't just have loops they made better use of area. Basically Imagine having multiple loops just with Atlanta core 5 counties.
I'm not against freeways...... If leaders can construct more freeways in Metro Atlanta core counties and not disturb neighborhoods much I would be for it, I just have trouble seeing how that can be done with out a super price tag. But what I am against is building freeways in exurbs.
Well I agree with you on the latter. I think an outer loop should help residents and not just truckers.
Ideally, a 2nd loop would run along the Roswell/Milton border in the north, along Ronald Reagan Parkway in the east and near Lithonia, and around 92 in the west, cutting through southwest Fulton County. But the Fulton County part, north or south, just isn't going to happen politically. Its conceivable the eastern and western portions could be closer in than that Cartersville proposal.
And you are correct, Houston's 2nd loop, Beltway 8, is about the same distance from downtown as 285. Long ago, interestingly, Houston's 610 was considered the outer loop and the freeways forming a loop around downtown (I-45, I-10 and I-69/US 59) were considered the inner loop.
Let just take that in for a second.......You could "easy" tear down business and homes...... um come again?
1. A freeway takes up a lot more space than a path for transit, seriously look at freedom parkway? Do you know the history behind it? You think a transit line remove as much freedom pwy? And that's just for route let talk about the how land would be remove for the interchanges?
2. No trasit wouldn't remove that much, all the light rail plans follow the freeways. Most of which is forest right now. Look Atlanta belt line it's planned to have light rail does that seem like it's a lot of space?
And The Clifton corridor would have to be a street car.
You also did not listen Houston is a grid Houston doesn't sprawl as wild as Atlanta, Houston density created areas to set side for freeways, this not case with Atlanta.
Austin is just 2 million its urban area is no where near the size of Atlanta. When Atlanta was Austin size that's when Atlanta should plan ahead and build a second loop and etc before significant develops got in the path.
Houston's grid outside Loop 610 was largely completed since 1980. They had a lot of disconnected roads and made a massive effort to complete and expand the arterials. That effort is still going on. Atlanta has done nothing about theirs.
MOST major interstates or freeways in major cities though, come at a cost.. Especially cities that were more developed before the 80's. New York, Chicago, Boston, ect..all of those cities WRECKED neighborhoods, some even fairly historic to build their freeway network
Yeah, nobody wants to live in Buckhead any more after 400 bisected and wrecked that neighborhood.
Well.. nothing would exactly be easy about it, especially with the NIMBY's here. My personal opinion is that Atlanta's freeway network is largely incomplete... Its complete enough for Atlanta and allows it to function..but thats it..there's no redundancy and there's no room for expansion. MOST major interstates or freeways in major cities though, come at a cost.. Especially cities that were more developed before the 80's. New York, Chicago, Boston, ect..all of those cities WRECKED neighborhoods, some even fairly historic to build their freeway network..see the thing is in Atlanta what I get the vibe and feeling from the locals here is that they want a grand transportation system but they don't want the costs associated with them (I don't mean financial, I mean the environmental and political impacts)... the thing is there is no..perfect answer..no perfect solution..if you do one, you have to sacrifice the other..there's no way to have the best of both worlds ESPECIALLY since Atlanta was unable to construct the network before the urban sprawl really exploded in the suburbs. If we want a better transportation system (Freeway, Mass Transit, whatever for it may come in) we have to accept there will be other side effects ... and this would be OKAY if Atlanta was only like 3 million people but it isn't.. Atlanta is a bottleneck for a good portion of the Southeast region so while its locals have learned to "deal with it" - inter-regional traffic suffers from it every day.
And those northeast cities don't have freeway system much better than Atlanta. Atlanta is a few freeway shy away from them is my point. The cities and northeast are no where near as complex with freeways as Dallas, Houston and LA freeways
But they don't need to be they are already better zone, have higher density near employment areas and far better transit.
Houston, Dallas, and LA are criticized for being pro sprawl with roads. The system is made help people travel A to B far distance rather making A and B closer.
Also Atlanta did wreck neighborhoods the promblem older cities value their neighborhoods people in general value their community, those east coast cities wreck some neighborhoods but these systems are no where near complex as LA, Houston, and etc. this cause they was younger and had less value on their neighborhoods and also in general hand more areas set aside.
I add more to this below
Quote:
It is true that Houston and Atlanta developed in an entirely different fashion. But I don't know about the sprawl comment, if you mean to say that Houston (and its metro) doesn't cover as much terrain as Atlanta and its Metro..I kind of have to disagree.. Houston is suburban from Galveston (Exit 1 on I-45) to just north of Conroe (Exit 90 on I-45) .. thats 90 miles of suburban area...it shocked the ever living crap out of me when I first saw how big it was. Basically, that is the equivalent of the distance between Newnan GA and Brastleton GA on I-85...where as on I-85 its rural between Newnan and Union City and rural between Mall of GA and Braslteton... Houston is minimum 4 lanes each direction, HOV / HOT / Express lanes for the entire length and constant suburbs in that entire region.
That is not what I mean Houston sprawls but it's a different type of sprawl.
Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Chicago, and LA metros are largely a grid.
Atlanta, philly, Boston, New York, charlotte and Raleigh metros aren't.
LA urbanize area is actually denser than NY this cause LA metro is a grid and nearly a small home lot size most of its metros.
The way Atlanta suburbia grew with chaotic roads seemly going away, neighborhoods with large variety of Home lot sizes including large yards is how all piedmont and east coast suburbia grew.
Quote:
I really have to disagree here too (no offense) While it is true that MOST of the North Eastern cities don't have dedicated outer loops (and in some cases even inner loops) MANY of them DO have REDUNDANT routes..meaning..you can take another highway and still get to the same place, many of them avoid the cities, some are tolled as well..while not dedicated bypasses..they do serve as alternatives. In Atlanta.. if you need to go from Charlotte to Montgomery... I-85 is all you get. Same goes for Knoxville to Macon, I-75 is all you get...you HAVE to go through the metro..can't take another highway where as on the flipside, in New York, if you were to go from Manhatten to Pittsburgh PA, there's about three different interstate grade highways you can take to get there.
I'm not discussing by passes but also there a difference from a loop meant to help people travel with in a metro from a freeway meant to by pass a metro all together.
If you build freeway in excurbs that accelerated sprawl. So either build beyond the metro or closer to the core so it will be useful to the local. Not in the grey area.
Quote:
I really need to point out that the map you made of Atlanta, the line starts at the I-75/I-85 and I-20 interchange, which is technically just south of Downtown Atlanta..where as the map you made of Houston is smack in the middle of downtown Houston... meaning..you made more distance on the Atlanta map..
however..
I redid the distances in google maps and they came out to be a 1 mile difference (Atlanta was 12.9 miles and Houston was 13.4 miles) -
Meaning Beltway 8 is alittle over 20 miles longer than I-285.. The reason this is so is because Beltway 8 travels east and west for longer intervals on its northern and southern portions than I-285 does and because of this, Beltway 8 has a larger circumferance than I-285 does, or basically the area inside Beltway 8 IN TOTAL is larger than it is for I-285 in Atlanta..meaning overall Beltway 8 would be alittle further than I-285 (it doesn't take long to get to either side of I-285 on a day with no traffic on I-20 going through downtown..but it takes a decent amount of time going north and south.)
Also note, Beltway 8 is technically NOT the outer perimeter for Houston.. The real outer perimeter is still under construction.. and that is Highway 99.. currently it only goes in about half of a circle around Houston..but its planned to go mostly entirely around it..and its MUCH further than I-285 is..it would be the equivalant of GA-316 on I-85... and Houston is for the most part entirely suburban within that circumference as well. The Grand Parkway Association
Figuratively speaking..SR 99 would have been the perfect world vision of The Northern Arc..had it been built and went completely around Atlanta..
------------------
I should also note..off subject..how we compare GA roads to TX roads and call TX roads on an entirely different level.. Texas Interstates actually kind of suck once you leave the city.. they have short onramps and offramps usually merging into TWO WAY access roads with only a yield sign stopping oncoming traffic and its onramps just throw you on with no taper into a 75 / 80 MPH speed zone.
[/quote]
Maybe you missed my point cause none of this change or even conflicts with the point I was making.
My point was Houston has more freeway internally. Just cause it's a second loop doesn't mean it's much further than Atlanta current loop, If Atlanta do build more freeways the leaders need to Fucos on the core and not throw a bunch of freeways in excurbs.
How ever my even larger point LA, DFW, and Houston are built sprawl
Atlanta wasn't, Atlanta is built like other eastern metros but didn't continue to grow dense and expand transit but instead started to sprawl like other sunbelt cities, Which creates the problems The metro has now. To fix issues Atlanta need to retrofit and look to metros DC and maybe Boston but not LA, and Houston.
Last edited by chiatldal; 05-20-2017 at 04:03 PM..
Growth patterns are just as important as transportation. Bad growth complicate transportation.
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