MARTA CEO calls for $100 billion transit ‘moonshot’ (Atlanta, Dunwoody: condo, credit)
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In my experience taking Marta and living intown, It isn't because it's so easy to drive (remember traffic is aweful and commuting in car = not fun) it's more about providing transit where people need it and making it an easy choice.
If I have to transfer 3 buses to take transit it's obviously not a good choice time wise for me during my commute. If my commute is shorter on transit and I get to read, rest etc then it's a win.
Indeed. My average commute time is around 20 minutes for my 12.5 mile commute. According to Google transit, if I left work right now, I could walk 7 minutes down to the bus stop, wait 21 minutes for the bus to arrive (much longer at night), ride for 33 minutes, transfer at HE Holmes (20 minute layover), take another bus ride for 21 minutes, then walk another ten minutes home. That's about 100 minutes, and about the shortest possible time for that trip. Why on earth would I do that?? Why would I want to do that? Is there anyone on this forum who would actually willingly make that trip just to be car free?
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Unfortunately the transit crowd so often is so anti car and wants to punish anyone that actually drives rather than focusing on providing a good product.
Very true. Almost every discussion is about how we can make it so hard or expensive for drivers that they will change "willingly". Rarely is it about how to make the service so much better.
Indeed. My average commute time is around 20 minutes for my 12.5 mile commute. According to Google transit, if I left work right now, I could walk 7 minutes down to the bus stop, wait 21 minutes for the bus to arrive (much longer at night), ride for 33 minutes, transfer at HE Holmes (20 minute layover), take another bus ride for 21 minutes, then walk another ten minutes home. That's about 100 minutes, and about the shortest possible time for that trip. Why on earth would I do that?? Why would I want to do that? Is there anyone on this forum who would actually willingly make that trip just to be car free?
Very true. Almost every discussion is about how we can make it so hard or expensive for drivers that they will change "willingly". Rarely is it about how to make the service so much better.
Why would you leave your house and wait 21m when you could time it up better than that? Anyone with a schedule or smartphone could time their walk to the bus stop to minimize the wait.
You do not live in a transit or walkable area of Atlanta, we all know that and you job has you traveling around the metro, so you are not a candidate to live a carbon-light lifestyle. That's fine, but there are others who do not have to travel for work and can/choose top live near frequent transit.
Unfortunately the transit crowd so often is so anti car and wants to punish anyone that actually drives rather than focusing on providing a good product.
That's fine, but there are others who do not have to travel for work and can/choose top live near frequent transit.
Yeah, but why would I choose that? Or how would I even choose that? I own my modest condo in Vinings and still can't afford to buy (or rent) within walking distance of a station in Midtown or Buckhead.
I work sort of near Dunwoody MARTA (a long walk and crossing a couple of busy suburban roads). But I'm not going to move away from my nice area that I enjoy living in, in order to live in some dangerous area just so that I can take MARTA to work and have a much longer commute time with a long walk when it's brutally hot and humid outside. That's silly. Especially when I own a car, I enjoy driving, and it's free and convenient to park at work.
You do not live in a transit or walkable area of Atlanta, we all know that and you job has you traveling around the metro, so you are not a candidate to live a carbon-light lifestyle. That's fine, but there are others who do not have to travel for work and can/choose top live near frequent transit.
The darndest thing is, even in neighborhoods that have good access to transit, ridership is often low.
Unfortunately the transit crowd so often is so anti car and wants to punish anyone that actually drives rather than focusing on providing a good product.
Unfortunately it is simply not a workable option to have everyone drive in a large city. No one is being "punished" deliberately for driving. But providing all the expensive infrastructure for driving costly and fills up quickly. So, one way or another drivers need to pay that cost. But they are not being punished any more than people are being "punished" for a loaf of bread.
I am actually in favor of less overall subsidization and letting people decide for themselves which transportation option they want more of by voting directly with their wallet.
But, in the mean time, we need to "punish" drivers and transit riders close to equally. Transit riders aren't even given an option to get around most places in the metro in timely matter. This "moonshot" over a few decades simply helps put transit at a more level playing field in giving people a choice. It does not punish anyone.
Totally agree it's not workable to have everyone drive and I am a big advocate of transit. My main point was you have to deliver a good transit product and do things to get the % or riders up. There are good models out there. I am in Seattle now and like 80% of downtown workers, take the bus which is faster than driving because the bus has dedicated lanes over bridges and other areas where traffic is otherwise bumper to bumper.
The fact that it is standard for most employers to pay for monthly passes helps ridership too -- I assume employers are given super low rates to encourage this.
Totally agree it's not workable to have everyone drive and I am a big advocate of transit. My main point was you have to deliver a good transit product and do things to get the % or riders up. There are good models out there. I am in Seattle now and like 80% of downtown workers, take the bus which is faster than driving because the bus has dedicated lanes over bridges and other areas where traffic is otherwise bumper to bumper.
The fact that it is standard for most employers to pay for monthly passes helps ridership too -- I assume employers are given super low rates to encourage this.
Agreed. I am not happy with the service at MARTA overall. But it seems pretty standard for government backed operation / most other transit providers.
You got to realize, there is not that strong of an incentive for MARTA workers or leadership to provide great service. They basically just need to do enough to not get fired from their union job. And that is not a high bar.
If most the riders or drivers stop using a route tomorrow because of bad service (delays on MARTA, terrible potholes on roads) then there will be minimal impact to either GDOT or MARTA. They will still be getting their tax dollars that they can spend as they want regardless of how customers vote with their feet / wallet. They just need to do enough PR to keep the politicians satisfied and their tax money for pet projects flowing in.
I think more privatization / direct user payments all around the transportation industry will result in a better experience for all.
Agreed. I am not happy with the service at MARTA overall. But it seems pretty standard for government backed operation / most other transit providers.
You got to realize, there is not that strong of an incentive for MARTA workers or leadership to provide great service. They basically just need to do enough to not get fired from their union job. And that is not a high bar.
If most the riders or drivers stop using a route tomorrow because of bad service (delays on MARTA, terrible potholes on roads) then there will be minimal impact to either GDOT or MARTA. They will still be getting their tax dollars that they can spend as they want regardless of how customers vote with their feet / wallet. They just need to do enough PR to keep the politicians satisfied and their tax money for pet projects flowing in.
I think more privatization / direct user payments all around the transportation industry will result in a better experience for all.
Exactly. Finally someone who thinks like I do. I hate government run anything. The quality is substandard compared to private companies. Japan is a perfect example of privatized transportation, and its rated the best in the world.
Why would you leave your house and wait 21m when you could time it up better than that? Anyone with a schedule or smartphone could time their walk to the bus stop to minimize the wait.
Notice that I said "if I left work right now". I don't get a choice in when they call the end of our work day. They finish filming, call "wrap", and that's the end. Sure, I can just sit around the studio waiting (which is still waiting), or do free off-the-clock work. Either way, I'm not getting to leave on my own time, and I could be home before the bus even made it to the pickup spot. I also might end up at work 30 minutes before I otherwise would based on bus schedules, so again, that would just be wasted time. Sure, I could work ahead for free, but...not every day.
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You do not live in a transit or walkable area of Atlanta, we all know that and you job has you traveling around the metro, so you are not a candidate to live a carbon-light lifestyle. That's fine, but there are others who do not have to travel for work and can/choose top live near frequent transit.
You do. According to Google, if I were your neighbor, it would take me the same amount of time. Yes, if you specifically choose a place to work based on quick transit access, then you might be able to have a short commute. But the number of people able to do that is very, very small.
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Originally Posted by jsvh
Unfortunately it is simply not a workable option to have everyone drive in a large city. No one is being "punished" deliberately for driving.
Nearly every prospect you guys put forward is huge additional taxes and fees placed on drivers.
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But providing all the expensive infrastructure for driving costly and fills up quickly. So, one way or another drivers need to pay that cost.
Which one of the following statements is false?
The GDOT Total Budget from state funding is $1.916 billion.
State funding of GDOT from motor fuel taxes is $1.831 billion.
State motor fuel taxes, paid for by drivers, account for 95.6% of state highway/road funding
Total federal Highway Trust Fund Outlays (from 2015...can't find more recent in quick search) were $42.952 billion
Federal gas tax brought $36.738 billion to the highway fund.
Federal gas tax accounted for 85.5% of highway fund spending.
A very small increase in fuel tax in Georgia and a modest increase in federal fuel tax would fully fund the highway departments.
MARTA's total budget was $996 million
MARTA's passenger fares totaled $134.9 million.
MARTA fares, paid for by passengers, accounted for 13.5% of spending.
Only a small potion of your property taxes fund local roads, which do provide uses for you.
Note: I can't find an actual number, but less than half of property tax pays for all local government spending outside of schools and parks.
Drivers pay FAR more towards roads than MARTA passengers pay towards transit.
Drivers from outside the MARTA sales tax zone do spend money inside it and thus do help fund MARTA.
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But they are not being punished any more than people are being "punished" for a loaf of bread.
If Big Potato managed to get a tax put on bread in order to fund potato farming, it would indeed punish people buying bread.
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I am actually in favor of less overall subsidization and letting people decide for themselves which transportation option they want more of by voting directly with their wallet.
Cool. So, let's raise the Georgia gas tax a few percent, and the federal gas tax a few percent and call it a day. That will hit only drivers funding all highways and state roads (the majority big roads).
At the same time, we will remove sales tax funding of transit and let users bear the full costs through a variety of funding mechanisms.
Local neighborhood roads need to be financed by everyone because they provide far more than just places for car drivers to speed through neighborhoods (deliveries, mail, utility service, emergency services, trash collection, places to ride bikes, amongst a hundred other things). I don't really consider that a subsidy.
Sound fair?
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But, in the mean time, we need to "punish" drivers and transit riders close to equally.
If drivers are paying 85-90% of road costs, in addition to paying for their own vehicles, gas, maintenance, and insurance, in addition property tax, in addition to paying transit sales tax; while transit riders are paying only 13.5% of costs, and the same property and sales taxes, how are transit riders getting the short end of the stick as far as funding goes?
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Transit riders aren't even given an option to get around most places in the metro in timely matter. This "moonshot" over a few decades simply helps put transit at a more level playing field in giving people a choice. It does not punish anyone.
You made a choice to use that method. Now you're asking for what the entire state pays in road funding towards a single local transit system. That's not a "level playing field", financially at least.
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Originally Posted by noah
The fact that it is standard for most employers to pay for monthly passes helps ridership too -- I assume employers are given super low rates to encourage this.
That's another thing I find fascinating. Not only do transit riders advocate for drivers to pay for the bulk of the costs of building out transit, they ask employers to cover the costs of their tickets. And yet, they STILL ***** and moan about drivers getting a heavily-subsidized ride.
Why can't they just say it outright: "I want other people to pay for my transportation costs because I don't think I should have to".
Last edited by samiwas1; 01-30-2019 at 07:54 PM..
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