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artsyguy, we "liberal" Christians typically view our religion as based on a tripod of scripture, tradition, and reason (or lived experience subjected to reason). We see the Bible as a corpus of disparate writings that the Church maintains and uses for a variety of purposes -- not as a rule book frozen in time. Indeed, the Church is "mistress of the scriptures", deciding which are applicable to contemporary life and which are considered worthy of inclusion in the official canon; this has, in fact, been the practice of the historic Church since apostolic times. The Bible is the creature of the Church, not the other way round. To be sure, the three legs of the tripod are kept in a sort of dynamic tension amongst us, but it's awfully naive of you to construe the place of the Bible in the Church strictly in terms of the way that essentially fundamentalist sectarian ecclesial groups indigenous to the American South treat the canonical books of the Old and New Testaments.
Amish and some Jewish folks also adhere to some rules that the bible has that wouldn't fit modern life....They don't cut the hair on their temples, adhere to the food rules not to eat fish that aren't scaled...eat cloven hooved animals and animals with feet, such as rabbits....shellfish, shrimp...,Muslims adhere to the dress codes in the Koran in that the women stay covered (this is also in the bible and how many Christians actually follow that, except maybe Pentacostals to a degree and Quakers/Amish? What about piercing (of ears or body)? This is also forbidden in the bible...how many people follow that as a religious rule and not pierce anything just as personal preference.
Artsyguy, anyone can pull out bible verses to suit what they are trying to say, but much of the time they are taken out of context with the entire chapter and story so it sounds totally different than it actually is in the book if someone doesn't check it out.
The Bible is conservative and extremist from start to finish. You might be a minority if you follow some form of humanism or Christian humanism. I personally have no problem with that; however, I've yet to meet any Christian that approves of humanism. Christian humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The bible is clearly not a proponent of humanism:
Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2:9-10)
DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
• DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
• MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
• LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
• MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
• DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
Titus 2:9-10: Is a letter from Paul to his son Titus. He's telling him how to live an honest life and how to be faithful. Of course they had servants. How many years ago was that? A thousand or something? Noone has slaves anymore.
Deut. 22:13-21: You left out some things. That a woman could be stoned to death IF the new husband found out his new bride was not a virgin, got all huffed up and told the elders and the bride's family brought proof (probably soiled sheets) that she really was a virgin then the man would be chastised. If a man slept with a married woman, he could be stoned to death. This is OLD TESTAMENT. None of those rules held water in the New Testament.
Deut. 22:22: Yes, that's what it says but I think the only culture that still does this is middle eastern.
Mark 10:1-12: That's what it says but you left out the part that these people came to him in reference to Moses wanting to divorce his wife so he could be married to another woman. I believe that Jesus' response was to divorce just because of desire for someone else, which to me would be like adultery. But, I'm no bible scholar. Two other reasons for acceptable divorce are unfaithfulness and if one of the spouses is a nonbeliever (religious differences). It also states that in God's eyes, you made a promise to that person and to divorce is breaking that promise and God hates broken promises.
Lev. 18:19: What??? "Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness." This is one verse out of 30, mainly about not sleeping with or unrobing/seeing nude, people in your immediate family (incest). Nowhere does it say this is punishable by death, but possibly being outcast. Again, old testament laws, especially menstruation. How many women still isolate themselves from the tribe whenever aunt flo comes around? Maybe in some african tribes.
Mark 12:18-27: Could you take this anymore out of context? The whole chapter starts with "And he began to speak unto them by parables...." The men come to him with the question "What if the man and woman have no kids, the man dies....the woman then marries one brother after the other, no kids ever come. When the resurrection happens, whose wife is she because she was married to all of them?"
Deut.25:11-12: It does say this, but remember, again you're stating old testament rules that were voided by the new testament. This chapter is full of old rules that noone does anymore, save for some middle eastern countries probably.
How does any of this biblical interpretation relate to whether Austin is becoming more liberal or conservative? Doesn't conservative/liberal have to do with scope of governmental powers? Last I checked in this country "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;... " See the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
It's totally a tangent. However, over on the Texas forum there's a thread concerning the new law authorising school districts to offer Bible as an elective in high schools (by authorising I mean mandating). Texas is full of religious reactionaries who try to control textbook selection and curriculum to reflect their fundamentalist, young earth-creationist-intelligent design agendas, and full of cynical politicians like Rick Perry who pander to them. Austin isn't immune, though it's a whole lot better than much of the state.
Oh please, they are "all inclusive" and "progressive". Oh okay, it says that on paper but do you really think everyone is going to "love" the idea of someone not following scripture to a T (openly gay or openly lesbians)? Everyone in a Baptist church is going to be like "ugh right. You do that now." Then quickly look away and in aversion.
It's practically impossible to be Baptist and be progressive. That is 100% deceptive. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" isn't progressive, it's oppressive just like any other ridiculous mantra that came out of the bible. Nothing in Christianity is progressive or liberal (it's over 2,000 years old and based on very strict traditional values). The majority of people take the bible literally and were raised in families to believe that the bible is literal, regardless of the "progressive" label. Progressive is just a label to get younger people involved. A catch phrase is all it really is....
How about Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore? NONE of them are progressive in the slightest, are they?
You really should refrain from commenting on material which you KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. University Baptist is a liberal church by ANY standards, and is far-left by Texas Baptist standards. They teach what Christ did: compassion and forgiveness and openness and LOVE.
You make the fatal mistake, as many right-wing Christians do, of ignoring the Gospels and focusing on the Old Testament. The Gospels, the centerpiece of Christian belief, are entirely about one thing: the Love of God for His people--so great that He would send His Son to be sacrificed that they might be saved from sin. You can focus on the Old Testament if you wish, but you should remember that it is primarily a text of civil law and ceremonial practice. The moral teachings are still binding today, but the civil and ceremonial teachings, which largely are those cited by those attempting to find fault with Christianity, are NO LONGER BINDING. You simply show your ignorance when you quote elapsed laws and insist they mean something. It's the equivalent of waving around the Articles of Confederation and insisting that the federal government is violating states rights' because of it.
You would do well to visit University Baptist--you might learn a thing or two. It's not significanly different from your beloved Cathedral of Hope.
Loneranger is right! There are NO conservative churches in Austin. None what so ever. And if Riverbend Church and Shoreline Church are not mega-churches then I don't know what is........ It would be impossible to run into any bigots in Austin. Totally impossible.
Here is Shoreline:
http://acousticdimensions.com/images/projects/worship/shoreline.jpg (broken link)
Hyde Park Chinese Baptist Church 1 review - Write a review
3901 Speedway, Austin, TX - (512) 465-8385
Website - Directions
B
First Baptist Church-Austin Write a review
901 Trinity St, Austin, TX - (512) 476-2625
Website - Directions
C
D
Ebenezer Baptist Church Write a review
1010 E 10th St, Austin, TX - (512) 478-1875
Website - Directions
E
First Mexican Baptist Church Write a review
112 Medina St, Austin, TX - (512) 478-2802
Website - Directions
F
Woodlawn Baptist Church 1 review - Write a review
4600 Manchaca Rd, Austin, TX - (512) 442-7858
"I used this child care center for 4 years and would not have left if we would not have moved. They have a nice new play area for the older kids. ..."
Website - Directions
G
Congress Avenue Baptist Church Write a review
1511 S Congress Ave, Austin, TX - (512) 447-7781
Website - Directions
H
Greater Mt Zion Baptist Church 2 reviews - Write a review
1809 Pennsylvania Ave, Austin, TX - (512) 469-9020
Website - Directions
I
A.
St Ignatius Martyr Church
- www.stignatius.org - (512) 442-3603 - More
B.
St Theresa Catholic School
- www.st-theresa.org - (512) 451-7105 - 7 reviews
C.
St Louis Catholic Church
- www.st-louis.org - (512) 371-9040 - 23 reviews
D.
Holy Cross Catholic Church
- www.holycrossaustin.org - (512) 472-3741 - More
E.
Cristo Rey Catholic Church Parish
- www.cristoreyaustin.org - (512) 478-1766 - 1 review
F.
Our Lady of Guadalupe
- www.olgaustin.org - (512) 478-7955 - More
G.
St Theresa Catholic Church
- www.sttaustin.org - (512) 451-5121 - 1 review
H.
Catholic Charities Office
- www.ccctx.org - (512) 494-0148 - More
I.
St Albert the Great Catholic Church
- www.saintalbert.org - (512) 837-7825 - 3 reviews
J.
St Austin's Catholic Church
- www.staustin.org - (512) 477-9471
If you think that the churches you pictured are megachurches you need to get out more. Try Prestonwood or Fellowship or Watermark in Dallas, for a start. They put the sanctuaries you pictured to shame. Go visit Potter's House for a church of a different color. Try Compaq Church...erm...Lakewood Church in Houston and cheer "Go God" in the basketball seats.
One of the largest weekly attendences in the Christian world is at St. Patrick's in New York--the sanctuary is enormous. This does not make it a megachurch.
Megachurches are not defined by church attendance alone, but by worship style and theological doctrine as well. Austin has churches which are similar to these churches, but in terms of sheer numbers does not have any church which comes close to a real megachurch.
You then further undermine your credibility when you cite Catholic churches in the same breath as Baptist churches and non-denominational churches. You're simply displaying your ignorance of Christianity. While all Christians believe in the teachings of Christ, the way they interpret them and the way they worship Him are so different as to approach different religions.
The Catholic churches you mention share little theogically with the other churches you listed. For starters, you listed Catholic Charities. They do not limit their charitable assistance to Catholics in the slightest nor those who follow Catholic doctrine and they are one of the largest charitable organizations IN THE WORLD.
The parishes you listed are not conservative Catholic parishes in the slightest. The Diocese of Austin is well known for being theologicaly liberal for the Church, and in particular those congregations near downtown have a reputation of being more liberal than the norm in Austin. When you try to mention St. Austin's and "conservative" in the same breath, it is downright impossible to believe you have any credibility at all.
You also listed a large group of fundamentally different Baptist Churches. "Baptist" does not define a universal set of beliefs, and the fact that the churches you list belong to different denominations of the Baptist movement, many of which are progressive churches, belies your ignorance of the Baptist movement and the divisions and differences within it.
Essentially, your posts have simply exposed another area you are unbelieveably ignorant in, and that is Christian worship and belief. Until you actually have factually correct knowledge on a subject, please do the world a favor and refrain from commenting, because you simply are presenting totally inaccurate information, which is completely in contrast with the purposes of this forum.
Last edited by Trainwreck20; 08-20-2009 at 07:16 AM..
At least you admit the cutesy city of Austin isn't immune. Otherwise, party on like you don't live in an oppressive Republican desert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorjef
It's totally a tangent. However, over on the Texas forum there's a thread concerning the new law authorising school districts to offer Bible as an elective in high schools (by authorising I mean mandating). Texas is full of religious reactionaries who try to control textbook selection and curriculum to reflect their fundamentalist, young earth-creationist-intelligent design agendas, and full of cynical politicians like Rick Perry who pander to them. Austin isn't immune, though it's a whole lot better than much of the state.
-Dallas has nothing to do with this since that city is also full of churches.
-Like I said earlier a church can easily call itself progressive and enlist itself into some special group that is unique but I believe it's just a label they use to attract or bait a younger or new generation of folks that are not familiar with Christianity.
-Bottom line Christianity is pretty traditional even if it calls itself progressive or liberal.
And these are not facts. This is how I see things. Big difference.
The Bible is conservative and extremist from start to finish. You might be a minority if you follow some form of humanism or Christian humanism. I personally have no problem with that; however, I've yet to meet any Christian that approves of humanism. Christian humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The bible is clearly not a proponent of humanism:
Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2:9-10)
DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
• DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
• MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
• LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
• MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
• DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
Well Said Artsyguy!
The Bible is full of violence and nonsense. But then, it's a product of human BS'ers. So its "less-than-worthless-ness" is to be expected.
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