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Ok, well I have read through this post and agree with some, disagree with some, and am still scratching my head at some of them.
I am a Factory trained tech. I work at a dealership. I am cross trained as I am a Honda Master Tech, and a Hyundai/Kia Master Tech. I also have certs for Honda Hybrid, and Hyundai/Kia Hybrids, along with the Hyundai Equus. I am a Platinum Level Hyundai Technician (Highest level of certification you can reach) there is approx. 5% Platinum Techs in the Nation for Hyundai (out of all Hyundai factory certified techs). I feel proud to of accomplished that. It was done by a physical skills test and not just a sit an attend course. I had to diagnose and repair some of the toughest problems out there, because they were bugged by some of the best TECHNICIANS in the country.
Now since that has been established here is my biggest peeve. I do not personally like being labeled a "Mechanic" I associate that term with backyard mechanics with little or no training or certification and someone who is NOT GOOD at properly diagnosing and repairing vehicles. Now there are a lot of great people out there some who work out of their garage or whatever and can properly diagnose and repair a car. I totally respect them, appreciate them and would never hesitate to ask one of them for help. You dont have to work at a shop or dealership, and be trained or certified to be good. We joke about ASE testing, we call it A S S testing. Anyone with common sense can pass the stupid test, it doesn't mean you are worthy of working on a customers car. I take the time to sit down and learn whats new in the industry, I have 100k worth of tools to stay on top of things and be able to repair the customers car with the right tools and get it back to them as soon as possible. I consider myself an Automotive Technician. I take the time to Diagnose and repair. Rather than just guess and throw parts at a car on the customers dime.
Here in Michigan we are one of few states who use Mechanics Licensing through the state. I am registered to repair cars through the state. Without one you can get into trouble. My license # goes on every single repair I do. I am the only person who is registered through the state to work on cars, not my boss, not the owner, not the parts guys. I have to take responsibility for my vehicles and the safety of those who get behind the wheel and drive a car that I worked on. I take my job seriously.
So finally to the topic at hand, flat rate billable hours.
Here you go:
Car comes through the door, requests timing belt replacement. I go to the computer and look at the flat rate guide. It shows a time of 4.7 hours. Sorry that the customer gets the **** end of this, but I round up to 5.0 hours. In a financial world money always rounds up. Now say the customer wanted to replace the water pump and it was timing belt driven and it shows an overlap time of +0.5hours with timing belt. I would still do both the timing belt and water pump for 5.0 hours. So in this case the customer is getting a better deal. I try my best not to "screw" the customer as most people out there think us mechanics always are doing.
Now I charged 5.0 hours of labor to do this repair, how long does it "really" take. Depending on the vehicle, I would say 50-75% of the time charged. Sometimes less than 50% and sometimes more than 75% of the time. Its the name of the game. Time is dependent on skill; I consider myself a pretty well skilled technician, capable of working on almost anything. There comes a point when I sacrifice time for quality. YOU the vehicle owner are my CUSTOMER. I want you to return to me for work. So I am not going to half-ass the job and charge you what you think is an outrageous amount of money and return your car to you worse than it was received, or full of new problems. I will sacrifice my time and possible money to fix your car correctly so you are happy and return in the future for more work.
I work in Michigan, for those of you that really don't know what that means in the car repair world. It simply means RUST. So now a job that is say a 4.0 hour job (no flat rate time is dependent on location). Could easily turn into a nightmare when bolts break, components don't separate etc... whereas if I were working in Arizona the job would be done in a few short hours because after-all, what is rust in Arizona? lol The salt belt states will usually charge a little more time to cover their behinds. Its not my fault if a rusty bolt breaks and I have to spend say 3 extra hours fixing this. That is not included in the 4.0hour flat rate time for the job. Who pays the difference? I will usually bump the 4.0hour job to say 5.5hr. I split it with the customer upfront. And I will even tell my advisor (the person the customer actually talks to about work on their vehicle) that if it all comes apart and goes smooth I will cut the time down to the standard rate.
I like customer retention, you are my paycheck.
Who here likes to stand around and not get paid? Well in my industry that is exactly what happens if no cars come in the door. I work 55 hours a week, give or take. I don't always work on 55 hours worth of repairs during the week. So I get less than the amount of hours I am here. Also there is no overtime. I get my hourly rate if I happen to get paid for 200 hours in a week. Never anything more than my standard rate. So in short, NO you will not get a "refund" if the actual repair time takes less than the quote billed time. Again actual repair time is dependent on skill level, and likewise if it takes longer than the billed time you are not getting charged any extra. If you are, then you are getting ripped off and find a new repair facility.
I hope this helped clear some stuff up for anyone out there. If you have any more questions personally to me you feel free to PM me or post them here.
Last edited by observer53; 03-28-2013 at 10:38 AM..
Reason: by request
I simply gave you one example of a car where the WP could be replaced in well under 15 minutes, with all the timing belt components removed. I was not saying that it should be done, or regularly is done. I was saying that it's possible, and provided evidence of such. I stand by my statement that, with all timing components removed, I can change out the WP in said Audi in 5 minutes. Period. If you are familiar with that car, you know that what I'm saying is factually true.
And I'll still assert that your 5-minute example is pure BS, which even you acknowledge is not something that you'd advise doing.
The flat-rate time for the timing belt on this car is 3.4 hours, and does not involve any draining of the coolant system. With the addition of the WP R&R, you've got to drain the cooling system. What comes out has got to go back into the engine upon the completion of the job. It's a lot more than 5 minutes additional to do the complete job, which is how shop time and performance is measured.
You can nit-pick that you can physically R&R the WP by itself as a single item in the course of the timing belt job, but the shop time reality is that it's a lot more than 5 minutes to complete the scope of the work.
It's more than a management concept, it's a reality in the overall work product that goes out the door.
Apparently, you don't or cannot understand the difference, and it's a critical one to how a shop must charge for their services.
I don't need to be familiar with that audi v-6 car, I know that you can't possibly add the WP R&R in combination with the timing belt R&R on this engine and only have 5 minutes additional shop time spent in completion of the work product. .4-.5 hr would be a shop actual working time mininum, in my estimate. The flat rate tables assert .8 to do it, which seems reasonable for an average tech in an average shop.
And I'll still disagree with you re shops doing full double billing. I call upon enough shops in my work today to know that nobody does that and stays in business these days ... because their charges would not be competitive in today's marketplace. Considering that I'm in an area of the USA where single point service towns are not unusual due to very low population density, it's a reality that the 'net has made consumers far more aware and price sensitive than ever. When a shop tries to screw people, they have options, and even a tow to another location can be justified.
The big differences here between you (and others who make your WAG assumptions about shop billing practices) and me is that I get to see the actual shop invoices and billing practices of many shops. My data base (generated over the last 15 years by shops using the management system that I rep now) is now over 500 shops in my territory alone, and nationally ... at the corporate level ... many multiples of that number of shops. In short, we're not guessing about what shops do and how they operate for billing practices, we're pros in the automotive shop management industry, and we get to see the internal numbers of shops real world operations ... including the shops that are successful businesses and ones that aren't. I've yet to see a long-term successful shop engage in any form of double billing as a routine practice.
And I'll still assert that your 5-minute example is pure BS, which even you acknowledge is not something that you'd advise doing.
Then sir, you simply don't know what you're talking about.
I've given you a specific example of a car on which it can be done. I know for a FACT that it can be done because I've done it. 9 bolts. If you were familiar with that car, and read what I said could be done, you too would know for a FACT that it can be done. I've also given you an example of a vehicle on which this cannot be done. What, about that, do you fail to understand?
Also, you need to read & comprehend before you vent & rant.
I'm not saying a shop should only charge 15 minutes' labor for changing a WP on an Audi A6. However, it does NOT take 3.4 hours to change out the timing belt, and it sure as hell doesn't take an extra couple hours to change the WP once the timing components are removed. Nor does it take 8/10ths of an hour. It takes few minutes. If your shop is charging HOURS extra for WP replacement on an Audi A6 - in addition to timing belt replacement - you are screwing people over. Also, why are you advocating dumping the old antifreeze back into the engine, after replacing the WP?
No wonder you're so angry and defensive about it.
Last edited by GarageLogic; 01-18-2013 at 10:16 AM..
I'm not saying a shop should only charge 15 minutes' labor for changing a WP on an Audi A6. However, it does NOT take 3.4 hours to change out the timing belt, and it sure as hell doesn't take an extra couple hours to change the WP once the timing components are removed. Nor does it take 8/10ths of an hour.
Good. Because the previous poster didn't suggest either. He said .4-.5 hours, or 24-30 minutes. Please try to pay attention.
Quote:
Also, why are you advocating dumping the old antifreeze back into the engine, after replacing the WP? .
He's not. He's simply saying that you have to consider both the time it takes to drain and refill the system, not that you should put the old coolant back in.
Then sir, you simply don't know what you're talking about.
(blah, blah, blah)
No wonder you're so angry and defensive about it.
You sir, obviously have no expertise in shop management or overhead expense.
You can claim all you want that you can remove "9 bolts and the water pump and then clean the surfaces and install the water pump and 9 bolts" in 5 minutes all you want to.
But your completely miss the point that you haven't completed a job, you've merely performed a portion of the job to a completed work product.
As a tech, you still have to refill the cooling system, bleed it out, and run the engine to operating temperature to verify that the cooling system is performing normally and correctly before that car leaves your stall. All of this takes tech time and shop overhead expense which must be accounted for and paid for somehow.
The "somehow" is accomplished by billing for this service in it's entirety. Not by charging only "5 minutes" additionally for the physical R&R of the water pump, but by the total time invested into the project by the shop. From a professional standpoint of business management, I have to even include the time spent bringing a car into a stall, getting it back out onto the lot, and being sure that the stall is presentable for the next vehicle project ... all of this takes time and labor. The clock runs without exception on shop opportunity overhead whether you're working on a car, driving it in and out, or mopping up the floor from the spilled coolant from the job you just completed as a tech. Even if your shop environment is set up with a shop porter/clean-up worker, it's still time and overhead expense which must be paid, even if if doesn't go to the tech who just spent only 5 minutes of his working day to R&R the water pump in the course of doing a timing belt job.
I don't know of any car owner who'd be satisfied to call the physical R&R of the water pump by itself as part of the scope of work to consider the job complete. The car owner wants to drive a car into the shop, and upon completion of the work, pay the bill and drive the car away with confidence that the work has been completed to a professional degree in accordance with the manufacturer's specs. You ain't that good that you could add the water pump replacement to the timing belt job in only "5 minutes", and you make yourself look ignorant of the realities of automotive repair to even begin to assert that you can do so.
I get to spend my professional time these days being paid by shop owners how to manage and improve their businesses in a professional, competitive, and profitable manner with a reasonable ROI and compensation for their efforts. I don't get emotionally involved with their profits and losses, I get to deal professionally with the challenges that they and their operations in their marketplaces present. I get paid to train their techs to perform in a professional manner, using both state of the art diagnostic tools and the basics of the profession. It's a fun business for me and I enjoy the challenges.
Whatever your qualifications are, shop business management apparently hasn't been part of the experience .... If anybody is angry here, it is you, all by yourself.
Good. Because the previous poster didn't suggest either. He said .4-.5 hours, or 24-30 minutes. Please try to pay attention.
He's not. He's simply saying that you have to consider both the time it takes to drain and refill the system, not that you should put the old coolant back in.
Here's what he said about the coolant. Perhaps your reading skill is different than mine.
Quote:
With the addition of the WP R&R, you've got to drain the cooling system. What comes out has got to go back into the engine upon the completion of the job.
Rednecks dump the old crap back into the radiator - probably without even straining it. Real mechanics don't.
Here's what he said about the coolant. Perhaps your reading skill is different than mine.
Rednecks dump the old crap back into the radiator - probably without even straining it. Real mechanics don't.
It's called comprehension.
The conversation was about the time it takes to make the repair. Part of your claim was that it didn't take any extra time to drain the coolant because it spills out when you remove the pump, and he was pointing out that you didn't account for the time it takes to replace the coolant after the repair is complete.
I agree that it could have been worded better but I didn't take it to mean he was advocating putting THE SAME coolant in that came out.
You sir, obviously have no expertise in shop management or overhead expense.
You can claim all you want that you can remove "9 bolts and the water pump and then clean the surfaces and install the water pump and 9 bolts" in 5 minutes all you want to.
But your completely miss the point that you haven't completed a job, you've merely performed a portion of the job to a completed work product.
As a tech, you still have to refill the cooling system, bleed it out, and run the engine to operating temperature to verify that the cooling system is performing normally and correctly before that car leaves your stall. All of this takes tech time and shop overhead expense which must be accounted for and paid for somehow.
The "somehow" is accomplished by billing for this service in it's entirety. Not by charging only "5 minutes" additionally for the physical R&R of the water pump, but by the total time invested into the project by the shop. From a professional standpoint of business management, I have to even include the time spent bringing a car into a stall, getting it back out onto the lot, and being sure that the stall is presentable for the next vehicle project ... all of this takes time and labor. The clock runs without exception on shop opportunity overhead whether you're working on a car, driving it in and out, or mopping up the floor from the spilled coolant from the job you just completed as a tech. Even if your shop environment is set up with a shop porter/clean-up worker, it's still time and overhead expense which must be paid, even if if doesn't go to the tech who just spent only 5 minutes of his working day to R&R the water pump in the course of doing a timing belt job.
I don't know of any car owner who'd be satisfied to call the physical R&R of the water pump by itself as part of the scope of work to consider the job complete. The car owner wants to drive a car into the shop, and upon completion of the work, pay the bill and drive the car away with confidence that the work has been completed to a professional degree in accordance with the manufacturer's specs. You ain't that good that you could add the water pump replacement to the timing belt job in only "5 minutes", and you make yourself look ignorant of the realities of automotive repair to even begin to assert that you can do so.
I get to spend my professional time these days being paid by shop owners how to manage and improve their businesses in a professional, competitive, and profitable manner with a reasonable ROI and compensation for their efforts. I don't get emotionally involved with their profits and losses, I get to deal professionally with the challenges that they and their operations in their marketplaces present. I get paid to train their techs to perform in a professional manner, using both state of the art diagnostic tools and the basics of the profession. It's a fun business for me and I enjoy the challenges.
Whatever your qualifications are, shop business management apparently hasn't been part of the experience .... If anybody is angry here, it is you, all by yourself.
Your extreme defensiveness is evidence that your shop is screwing people over. You're double charging, and you hate the fact that somebody is calling it to everyone's attention.
1. I have not advocated charging somebody 5 minutes' labor for replacing a water pump. Your claim that I have is a lie.
2. I have not advocated charging a customer 15 minutes' labor for replacing a water pump. Your claim that I have is a lie.
3. I am saying that, on the model I cited, the WP can be changed in 15 minutes or less. If YOU cannot do that, it's because YOU are a ****-poor mechanic. I've also said - repeatedly - that not all WPs are able to be changed so easily.
What you are doing is coming up with all kinds of excuses why it's okay for you to over-charge and double-charge and customers. I'm calling you out, and making it clear that it is NOT okay to do that. THAT is why "mechanics" have such a horrible reputation - akin to used car salesmen.
Just yesterday I dug into an EcoTec in an 04 Malibu. Slipped timing chain, due to improper tensioner installation by a "Trained Certified Service Tech" (code for slack-jawed jackass kid who has a piece of paper with his name on it), in a shop that refuses to stand behind their warranty. They claim the customer - who just happens to be a woman - did something to ruin the engine. $600 to replace the timing chain, and they didn't do it right. They screwed her over once, and now they're doing it again.
Fortunately for her, she landed in an honest shop, where I'm suggesting that she not pay me a bunch of money to repair an engine with 175,000 miles, but let us look for a good used engine. She'll end up with a better end product, for less money. And I'll stand behind my work, because I know I'm doing it right.
THAT is what HONEST shops do. And we make danged good money doing it, because our customers keep coming back, and keep bringing their friends & family. No need for double-billing here. No need for double-talk and obfuscation about shop hours. Just straightforward ethical business.
Here's what he said about the coolant. Perhaps your reading skill is different than mine.
Rednecks dump the old crap back into the radiator - probably without even straining it. Real mechanics don't.
"what comes out is coolant"...
What needs then to be replaced is coolant.
It can be new, recycled, or the old coolant from the car.
Some of us use a test kit or tester to ascertain the qualities of removed coolant from a vehicle and the additive pack in it. There's more than a few times where the removed coolant is in excellent condition and has a significant remaining service life remaining. I've been using a visual tester for over 30 years, have you?
While the Audi doesn't have a huge coolant system volume, I travel into the realm of shops with engines that have 20-40 gallon cooling systems capacity. Changing coolant that is clean and serviceable just because you're a "real mechanic" just ain't justified if it's in good condition and it's a significant unnecessary expense to just throw it away.
Fact is, I'll bet that you don't even have test strips, a coolant test kit, or a visual tester for your toolbox ... so you don't even know what it is you're changing out. Today's long life coolants are fit for a lot longer service then may be encountered between the interval from the last coolant change-out to the time when a WP is replaced at a routine timing belt change.
That's one of the things that our shop management system tracks, vehicle service history. A competent service writer/shop manager will check into this, where he/she might note that a repeat customer on a good maintenance schedule replaced coolant in a timely manner in a recent time frame, but when now presented with a timing belt/WP job, now has coolant that has a modest amount of service life used up.
IMO, as a shop manager/owner, it would be doing a disservice for that customer to replace coolant that has a lot of time and mileage left on it in normal service just because the system was opened up to replace the water pump.
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