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Bottom line: I call on a lot of shops where they're paying 40 hours on the clock wages to techs who can't get 30-35 hours of billable time out the door each week.
Although not specifically stated, I believe your referring to "Official" dealership repair shops, doing warranty repairs on vehicles. I can see the manufacture setting allotted time to make warranty repairs. However how much work is really warranty work at a dealership? I wouldn't think it be a whole hell of a lot. So your suggesting the manufacture is dictating how long it should take to make a non-warranty repair? I would wager the dealership has more control in this area, if not, why can I get my Honda Civic Timing belt, water pump and belts replaced at one dealership for $390 and another wanted to charge me $600 for the timing belt alone? if it's a universal charge, it should be the same no matter where I take it.
It's my understanding that Dealership make very little profit on the sale of autos, the real profits are in the service center and selling used cars. While it very well might be true that dealership are taking a beating when preforming warranty repairs for the manufacturer, there are certainly not taking that kind of loss when doing out of warranty repairs.
Last edited by TechGromit; 05-16-2012 at 01:09 PM..
My Moms been going to an independent mechanic for 20+ years, when I got my car 12 years ago, thats where I went.
He doesnt break out labor hours, but when he gives me the total bill, I know its way less then Id get anywhere else, so I dont really care what hes charging, or how he comes up with the price, in so much as its saving me a fortune over another guy.
Although not specifically stated, I believe your referring to "Official" dealership repair shops, doing warranty repairs on vehicles. I can see the manufacture setting allotted time to make warranty repairs. However how much work is really warranty work at a dealership? I wouldn't think it be a whole hell of a lot. So your suggesting the manufacture is dictating how long it should take to make a non-warranty repair? I would wager the dealership has more control in this area, if not, why can I get my Honda Civic Timing belt, water pump and belts replaced at one dealership for $390 and another wanted to charge me $600 for the timing belt alone? if it's a universal charge, it should be the same no matter where I take it.
It's my understanding that Dealership make very little profit on the sale of autos, the real profits are in the service center and selling used cars. While it very well might be true that dealership are taking a beating when preforming warranty repairs for the manufacturer, there are certainly not taking that kind of loss when doing out of warranty repairs.
Sorry, TechGromit, FALSE PREMISE ... while my automotive business takes me into OE dealerships, 95% + of my professional exposure these days is in independent aftermarket shops. My clientele includes auto repair shops, truck repair shops, fleet maintenance shops, and gov't auto/truck repair shops. If you see a business facility that works on anything from small cars through Class 8 Tractors ... that's my client base.
The company I work for uses factory non-warranty time guides as a guideline to publish their times. However, they take this business seriously and shop the marketplace in many sectors. For example, they've developed their own time guides for many repairs by documenting the average tech times on average vehicles with average tooling in the aftermarket shops; this compilation is the basis for their time guides. And that's why you'll see serious discrepancy's between known real-time tasks in the aftermarket in comparison to dealership flat-rate billing ... especially on cars older than 7-10 years.
Your understanding that the dealerships have profit centers in the service center is rarely true. That's why most of the OE dealers don't work on cars older than a modest number of years anymore and have abandoned that marketplace to the aftermarket. They do LOF quick lane service only because it's a tie-in to vehicle sales; these are not profit centers for them in the same way that an independent quick lube center makes money in this end of the business. While the profits in new car sales are modest, the real profit centers in a new car dealership are the USED cars, the add-on fluff that they pack a deal with for the new cars, finance/leasing profits, and the parts department.
FWIW, I spent all day yesterday in an independent service shop in a remote area of fly-over country setting up their shop management system and implementing substantial changes in how they will operate in the future as a business to assure their profitability/capability to survive with the resources that they have available ... and the shop service side of their operation. As a consultant, I was able to assist them with new billing policies for work on the medium and heavy duty trucks and school bus fleets they are working on ... as well, helped diagnose several vehicles in their shop that had been stubbornly resisting a correct repair. Such is the range of my professional services in the business.
Mechanic hours are not actuall hours. Each type of car repair is charted, the mechanic hours are based on the type and difficulty of the job. This is why it is called billable mechanic hours.
An example, a fan belt replacement will be billed at 1 (one) mechanic hour, it it may actually only take 20 minutes.
Mechanic hours are not actual time/clockable hours.
You're right that "shop hours" are not clock hours. There are very few shops/mechanics that actually charge by the amount of time the repair took.
What should also be noted is that some shops will actually screw people over by "double billing" their shop hours. It works this way....
Let's say that the book says it takes 5 "shop hours" to replace the timing belt & components. The book also says that it takes 5 "shop hours" to replace the water pump. Some shops will charge 10 shop hours for the two procedures, when the truth is that when you have all the components removed to replace the timing belt, it only takes about 15 minutes to replace the water pump.
Not all shops screw people over this way, but a few do.
You're right that "shop hours" are not clock hours. There are very few shops/mechanics that actually charge by the amount of time the repair took.
What should also be noted is that some shops will actually screw people over by "double billing" their shop hours. It works this way....
Let's say that the book says it takes 5 "shop hours" to replace the timing belt & components. The book also says that it takes 5 "shop hours" to replace the water pump. Some shops will charge 10 shop hours for the two procedures, when the truth is that when you have all the components removed to replace the timing belt, it only takes about 15 minutes to replace the water pump.
Not all shops screw people over this way, but a few do.
You're right that "shop hours" are not clock hours. There are very few shops/mechanics that actually charge by the amount of time the repair took.
What should also be noted is that some shops will actually screw people over by "double billing" their shop hours. It works this way....
Let's say that the book says it takes 5 "shop hours" to replace the timing belt & components. The book also says that it takes 5 "shop hours" to replace the water pump. Some shops will charge 10 shop hours for the two procedures, when the truth is that when you have all the components removed to replace the timing belt, it only takes about 15 minutes to replace the water pump.
Not all shops screw people over this way, but a few do.
The flat rate tables in the industry reflect these situations; ie, the base time for the timing belt R&R is listed, and then the "combination" time for the additional work of replacing the water pump is an additional nominal charge to that ... as opposed to looking up the full time to do the water pump R&R as a stand-alone job and adding that to the full timing belt job.
In any event, I'd defy you to do the water pump replacement on most timing belt jobs in 15 minutes. Even in those cars where the water pump gasket/seal consistently breaks out clean for the block mating surfaces, there's still the coolant draining/refill, surface cleaning, possible thermostat housing w/t-stat replacement (for example, on a Subie flat-4), and so forth.
In my experience, with the age of computerized access to information readily available in the industry, the old days of such horror tales of abusing customers are long gone by shops who value their reputation in the industry and seek to satisfy their customers by staying in business for awhile. Maybe 30 years ago, some shops could get away with these shennanigans .... but as an industry, it's pretty long gone. Especially in the day and age of consumer affairs protection and consumer advocacy groups and ready access by the public. More so, now that the 'net is available as a marketing tool to shops and they are aggressively using them to seek out, attract, and retain customers .... folk realize they have choices and the ignorance of the buying public is not so easy to take advantage of anymore when they can get educated very easily, seek second opinions, and use all the resources that apply in their business to what transpires in the automotive world.
In any event, I'd defy you to do the water pump replacement on most timing belt jobs in 15 minutes. Even in those cars where the water pump gasket/seal consistently breaks out clean for the block mating surfaces, there's still the coolant draining/refill, surface cleaning, possible thermostat housing w/t-stat replacement (for example, on a Subie flat-4), and so forth.
Been there, done that.
You'll find this very hard to believe, but look into replacing a water pump on a '95 Audi A6 Quattro with the 2.8 V6. When all the timing belt components are removed - as they have to be to do the timing belt job - the water pump is just sitting there buck naked. Remove 9 bolts, remove the old water pump, let the antifreeze gush out and directly down into a coolant drain pan, scrape residual gasket material off the housing, install new gasket & pump, torque down the bolts. The whole thing is facing the front of the car, and you have a shockingly adequate amount of room to work.
You'd be dumbfounded by how simple the water pump replacement for that car (for instance) is. An Audi, no less. Truth is, as an experienced mechanic, I could do the swap in 5 minutes.
Again, you'd be surprised by how simple (and sometimes how stupidly complicated) some repairs are...
You'll find this very hard to believe, but look into replacing a water pump on a '95 Audi A6 Quattro with the 2.8 V6. When all the timing belt components are removed - as they have to be to do the timing belt job - the water pump is just sitting there buck naked. Remove 9 bolts, remove the old water pump, let the antifreeze gush out and directly down into a coolant drain pan, scrape residual gasket material off the housing, install new gasket & pump, torque down the bolts. The whole thing is facing the front of the car, and you have a shockingly adequate amount of room to work.
You'd be dumbfounded by how simple the water pump replacement for that car (for instance) is. An Audi, no less. Truth is, as an experienced mechanic, I could do the swap in 5 minutes.
Again, you'd be surprised by how simple (and sometimes how stupidly complicated) some repairs are...
GL ... if you've been following C-D threads for any length of time, you'd know that I've repeatedly posted that my shop hands-on experience is in excess of 50 years, with 35 years as the owner of a M-B/BMW independent specialty shop (where I got to be the lead tech, service writer, diagnostician, janitor, and "the boss").
At this point in my automotive career, I'm a rep for an automotive shop management supplier, calling upon automotive service shops in 5 states. So I get to see a side of the biz that somebody just selling hard products does not see, I get involved in the day to day operations in the front and the back side of the house.
So ... the long and the short of this is ... I'm not surprised by anything in this business when it comes to service procedures or diagnostics. A part of my professional services today is to improve shop efficiency/productivity, to eliminate lost billable hours for a shop each week. Watching how various techs move, visualize their tasks, and select their tools/equipment is a large item, and gets involved with how shops are managed and laid out. I do this to a level where I'm involved in hiring decisions at some shops, and I've had to be the consultant in some where I've advised a shop owner to let people go or to utilize them for other aspects of their business. It's not unusual for me to have to demonstrate my skills level by doing hands on training with tools/equipment in the shops and it's usually the stubborn diagnostic problems or difficult (if not next to impossible) repairs that are the ones that the shops bring to me for solutions.
At that, I've done my fair share of timing belt replacements on VW/Audi products through the years on their diesel cars, and they are as you would describe very accessible for the water pump when you're working in the timing belt area. But I'd seriously doubt that an on-the-clock shop time to do even the WP R&R as you describe would be a matter of only 5 minutes extra in even the best of circumstances ... it's not, as you acknowledge, just the simple matter of the fasteners and the WP removal, then the block cleaning, then install the pump and fasteners. Had you limited the time to just the fastener removal, block clean-up, and WP R&R, then fastener installation, maybe, but that's not even close to the full scope of the task to completion. There's the practical matter of how long it takes to drain the coolant and then later to refill it, which all becomes part of the WP job that's in addition to the timing belt. I wouldn't call the WP replacement job complete until the cooling system had been completely bled out and at least run up to operating temp and the heater verified for output; that definitely adds up to a lot more than 5 minutes extra on a timing belt replacement.
At that, I've done my fair share of timing belt replacements on VW/Audi products through the years on their diesel cars, and they are as you would describe very accessible for the water pump when you're working in that area. But I'd seriously doubt that an on-the-clock shop time to do even the WP R&R as you describe would be a matter of only 5 minutes extra in even the best of circumstances ... it's not, as you acknowledge, just the simple matter of the fasteners and the WP removal, then the block cleaning, then install the pump and fasteners. Even with air tools, there's the practical matter of how long it takes to drain the coolant and then later to refill it, which all becomes part of the WP job that's in addition to the timing belt.
I could roll out my credentials as well, but I won't. Nevertheless... Here is your statement I was responding to.
Quote:
I'd defy you to do the water pump replacement on most timing belt jobs in 15 minutes.
I simply gave you one example of a car where the WP could be replaced in well under 15 minutes, with all the timing belt components removed. I was not saying that it should be done, or regularly is done. I was saying that it's possible, and provided evidence of such. I stand by my statement that, with all timing components removed, I can change out the WP in said Audi in 5 minutes. Period. If you are familiar with that car, you know that what I'm saying is factually true.
But for the sake of fairness, it's also obvious that not all WPs are so easily changed. Dodge minivans, would be an example of something entirely different.
Also, I am not saying that shops should only charge 15 minutes' labor to change out a WP. What I am saying is that there are unscrupulous shops who will screw people over by double billing for such things. We both know it happens.
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Mechanic hours
