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Old 10-21-2018, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Florida
4,376 posts, read 2,424,586 times
Reputation: 7735

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
I'm not a huge fan of BEV's but I think there's a huge opportunity for heavy diesels. Diesel alone isn't necessarily good enough on it's own merit, hence we have diesel electric trains and not straight diesel. Even the cleanest diesel trucks are dirty and I'm not talking from a global warming standpoint. There's straight nasty soot spewing out diesel exhaust. Being stuck behind one sucks, and it would be nice if the garbage truck's engine didn't rattle everybody's windows.
Just watching one inching driveway by driveway just to grab one household garbage can at a time while dumping soot all over the place just looks painfully inefficient. If anybody could use braking regen and quite electric operation it's a garbage truck. Being a fleet vehicle free of the constraints of consumer image is a huge opportunity.


That being said, the fuel source should be hydrogen. A giant battery is just ridiculous and lazy.
The "electric" in diesel electric trains, ships, etc is simply in lieu of a mechanical transmission/clutch. The power comes from the diesel engine.

Some department stores a century ago used electric delivery trucks. They were eventually replace by gas and diesels for overall efficiency reasons. Part of this was the move to suburbia which made distances greater.

Hydrogen requires careful handling. Think Hindenburg.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:30 PM
 
6,899 posts, read 2,558,031 times
Reputation: 4691
Quote:
Originally Posted by engineman View Post
The "electric" in diesel electric trains, ships, etc is simply in lieu of a mechanical transmission/clutch. The power comes from the diesel engine.

Some department stores a century ago used electric delivery trucks. They were eventually replace by gas and diesels for overall efficiency reasons. Part of this was the move to suburbia which made distances greater.

Hydrogen requires careful handling. Think Hindenburg.
Over 2/3rds of the passengers and crew survived Hindenburg. If diesel can be stored safely, so can hydrogen.

The electric in a diesel electric train was added for efficiency. It recaptures wasted energy from braking and uses it for low end torque. The diesel is the fuel. Just replace the diesel with a hydrogen fuel cell.
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
13,633 posts, read 8,654,691 times
Reputation: 11225
Every time I am in Philly and see the noisy, smelly SPETA buses I ask myself why are't they electric? Surely the mayor and the city hall that never miss the opportunity to warn every one of global warming could issue a decree. Just like Narberth in the famed Philly suburbs that just banned plastic bags they can say electric or die.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
2,577 posts, read 682,597 times
Reputation: 2153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
Over 2/3rds of the passengers and crew survived Hindenburg. If diesel can be stored safely, so can hydrogen.

The electric in a diesel electric train was added for efficiency. It recaptures wasted energy from braking and uses it for low end torque. The diesel is the fuel. Just replace the diesel with a hydrogen fuel cell.
Itís the same system used in big ships huge Diesel engines run large electric generators to power the ship., same concept as a whole house generators were natural gas or propane is used instead of diesel fuel.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:14 PM
 
6,899 posts, read 2,558,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easy62 View Post
It’s the same system used in big ships huge Diesel engines run large electric generators to power the ship., same concept as a whole house generators were natural gas or propane is used instead of diesel fuel.
Well sorta. The ships don’t act like a hybrid like the trains do. They’re probably the dirtiest power plants. Once they get out to sea in international waters they switch to cheaper high sulfur fuel oil.
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Old 10-22-2018, 01:53 PM
Status: "My memory foam mattress has Alzheimer's" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Maryland
31 posts, read 2,285 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
Over 2/3rds of the passengers and crew survived Hindenburg. If diesel can be stored safely, so can hydrogen.
Hydrogen is the smallest atom in the universe and can't be easily stored in materials made up of larger atoms, it slips right out. Diesel is not as flammable, and it doesn't have to be stored under pressure, either, unlike hydrogen.

Quote:
The electric in a diesel electric train was added for efficiency. It recaptures wasted energy from braking and uses it for low end torque. The diesel is the fuel. Just replace the diesel with a hydrogen fuel cell.
The modern diesel electric locomotive uses electric motors for the traction power, and the diesels ONLY drive a large alternator to provide the electricity for the electric motors. The diesel is not mechanically connected to the drive wheels. And yes, a hydrogen fuel cell could do the job.

For passenger cars, light trucks, buses, medium duty trucks, a BEV is more practical as you're using the electricity directly, instead of wasting some of it in the hydrogen generation and delivery process.

BEV buses are taking over in a lot of places around the world as they generally have a 200 mile range which is enough for a day of innercity use, and can regen quite a bit during the day and charge overnight or when not on shift. They used to be powered by overhead lines, but now just have standard charge systems:

http://automotive-exports.com/wp-con.../bloomberg.jpg

Quote:
The total number of electric buses in service is forecast to more than triple, from 386,000 last year to about 1.2 million in 2025, equal to about 47 percent of the worldwide city bus fleet, according to a report from Bloomberg

According to a report from Bloomberg, nearly half of the municipal buses on the road worldwide will be electric within seven years, with China expected to dominate the global market as it aims to cut urban pollution and support domestic manufacturers.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:24 PM
 
3,557 posts, read 1,816,472 times
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You can also have pantograph charging systems at the end of each line:



Bus goes back and forth between station A and station B with 20 minutes of downtime between runs. Attach to the pantograph for a quick top up.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:30 PM
 
6,899 posts, read 2,558,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvetters63 View Post
Hydrogen is the smallest atom in the universe and can't be easily stored in materials made up of larger atoms, it slips right out. Diesel is not as flammable, and it doesn't have to be stored under pressure, either, unlike hydrogen.



The modern diesel electric locomotive uses electric motors for the traction power, and the diesels ONLY drive a large alternator to provide the electricity for the electric motors. The diesel is not mechanically connected to the drive wheels. And yes, a hydrogen fuel cell could do the job.

For passenger cars, light trucks, buses, medium duty trucks, a BEV is more practical as you're using the electricity directly, instead of wasting some of it in the hydrogen generation and delivery process.

BEV buses are taking over in a lot of places around the world as they generally have a 200 mile range which is enough for a day of innercity use, and can regen quite a bit during the day and charge overnight or when not on shift. They used to be powered by overhead lines, but now just have standard charge systems:

http://automotive-exports.com/wp-con.../bloomberg.jpg

I don't think storing hydrogen isn't a problem. 1000 ft Zeppelins were able to store vast amounts of hydrogen in cow intestines over 100 years ago. They were able to survive everything from transatlantic flights to bombing raids. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...0-8782723.html

Diesel might not be as flammable, but it does have disadvantages, such as a hotter burning temperature, it's heavy liquid that sticks to everything, while hydrogen almost immediately vaporizes and escapes to the atmosphere without pooling. Hydrogen has it's storage challenges but they're not insurmountable.

Unfortunately I think most of the world's BEV buses are heavily subsidized as it's still not cost effective on it's own. A 200 mile range bus would have to plan for battery degradation, cold weather operation, not to mention excessive weight. As a result the battery has to actually be overbuilt to something like a 200 mile range to provide a reliable 100 mile range in all conditions and for the life of the bus. A fuel cell is more like a diesel in that it refuels just as easily, the fuel itself doesn't consume a lot of payload capacity (size and weight), and the range doesn't degrade with age. The infrastructure and technology isn't getting far because I think too much emphasis has been placed on BEVs for a quick fix, when BEVs aren't realistically scalable.

I agree a fuel cell is a bit overkill for a light truck or passenger vehicles.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:49 PM
Status: "My memory foam mattress has Alzheimer's" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Maryland
31 posts, read 2,285 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
I don't think storing hydrogen isn't a problem. 1000 ft Zeppelins were able to store vast amounts of hydrogen in cow intestines over 100 years ago. They were able to survive everything from transatlantic flights to bombing raids. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...0-8782723.html
In order to have the requisite amount to power a car or bus, the container has to be a bit smaller than a typical Zeppelin AND hold enough hydrogen to provide the quantity needed for the fuel cell to last more than 5 miles. That means pressurization and large amounts thereof, which makes it vastly more complex and dangerous than the hydrogen in a Zeppelin. Unless you thin that a Zeppelin sized car is the proper way to exist...

You have to either store hydrogen as a pressurized gas at up to 10,000psi OR as a liquid (below -232 degrees) https://worthingtonindustries.com/Pr...gen-Fuel-Tanks

Both are problematic for personal vehicle use. (how many people do you want handling a 10,000psi filler system?)
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:00 PM
 
Location: WA
5,292 posts, read 20,697,476 times
Reputation: 5622
Diesel is used for good reason...

'Energy density and the cost, weight, and size of onboard energy storage are important characteristics of fuels for transportation. Fuels that require large, heavy, or expensive storage can reduce the space available to convey people and freight, weigh down a vehicle (making it operate less efficiently), or make it too costly to operate, even after taking account of cheaper fuels. Compared to gasoline and diesel, other options may have more energy per unit weight, but none have more energy per unit volume.'

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=9991#
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