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Old Yesterday, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
4,554 posts, read 1,506,011 times
Reputation: 6523

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
Light trucks, even at "only" 50% of sales is probably 65-75% of the profits.
...winch you back up so you can do it again...

Quote:
The F-150 sells more than the Accord and Civic combined with higher margins.
...and again...

Quote:
If Honda didn't want any piece of that they wouldn't bother starting off with the Ridgeline.
...and again. It's just frickin' amazing.

Quote:
I just don't see where all the Ford hate is coming from when they are abandoning non-profitable segments, and there are plenty of other automakers who do not offer a full lineup either.
Well, we're even; I completely fail to understand the slobbering truck-love that makes you guys start swinging a baseball bat around every time someone mentions another market segment. Understand, I like trucks; my dad built a series of '56 Custom Cabs that are probably still treasured by their owners and I wish I had one. But I don't drive one because it doesn't fit my tastes or my needs.

There isn't any "Ford hate" here anyway, just amazement that they've swallowed the Bud Lite drinker's line that pickups and pretendy-trucks will just continue to take over the market, forever more, to the point of abandoning century-old market segments. Ford isn't a niche maker; they are one of two or three full-line international makers and always have been. And if any company should have the lessons of short-sighted product decisions down and have learned from them, it's Ford.

Fine, fine, let them play to the moment and drop everything that isn't an F-150 or a pretend-a-like. But you might want to bookmark one of these discussions for reference when, oh, about 2021 the market whims shift and their corporate sales tank and they go hat in hand whining for a bailout.
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Old Yesterday, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Coastal, NC
2,655 posts, read 2,112,094 times
Reputation: 3843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
...winch you back up so you can do it again...


...and again...


...and again. It's just frickin' amazing.


Well, we're even; I completely fail to understand the slobbering truck-love that makes you guys start swinging a baseball bat around every time someone mentions another market segment. Understand, I like trucks; my dad built a series of '56 Custom Cabs that are probably still treasured by their owners and I wish I had one. But I don't drive one because it doesn't fit my tastes or my needs.

There isn't any "Ford hate" here anyway, just amazement that they've swallowed the Bud Lite drinker's line that pickups and pretendy-trucks will just continue to take over the market, forever more, to the point of abandoning century-old market segments. Ford isn't a niche maker; they are one of two or three full-line international makers and always have been. And if any company should have the lessons of short-sighted product decisions down and have learned from them, it's Ford.

Fine, fine, let them play to the moment and drop everything that isn't an F-150 or a pretend-a-like. But you might want to bookmark one of these discussions for reference when, oh, about 2021 the market whims shift and their corporate sales tank and they go hat in hand whining for a bailout.



I was going to say something here, but you saved me some typing. Not a Ford hater here, I have owned many. If or when they fail. They wont be able to dust off the molds and start pressing sedans again. Going further down the drain. What they are doing is NOT one of their better ideas, narrowing their market niche.
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Old Yesterday, 06:16 PM
 
10,547 posts, read 2,864,354 times
Reputation: 9126
Out in the market looking for two cars/vehicles. You've all heard this rant before, but those SUV/CUV things are the most impractical vehicles possible....from a design and engineering viewpoint. All you need to do is look at the outside and there is this large bubble shaped body rising up into this tiny curved top....that's a formula for "no room", which is borne out when you look inside.

My wife has a 2008 Subie Outback and it's hard to find a replacement - Outbacks got too large and they don't handle well any longer. She'll probably end up with a Camry Hybrid because it's just a vast better everyday vehicle for the money than most stuff out there.

A big problem with the SUV/CUV is visibility as well as getting them in and out of tighter parking spaces. It all can be done...but why? I look at many of them and the back seats are within a foot of the rear window...ridiculous.

I had lots of trucks, vans, stake bodies, etc. when I needed them. But now our needs are...you know, to drive.

The Kia Soul is starting to sell big time for this very reason. It fits in parking spaces, you can see out of it and you can put people and other stuff into it.

I think I'm with the old Steve Jobs saying "People don't know what they want". If one needs a pickup, a minivan or a regular van there are plenty of options. But if a person wants to drive a car why have a top heavy, expensive, large machine that does everything poorly? It just doesn't make sense.....

But, then again, Pet Rocks and fake Cell Phones and those funny leashes with no pet in them are/were popular.

The VW Golf Sportwagen/Alltrack is really a perfect vehicle "form" for many people, but VW is screwy in so many ways these days...no inventory, no information, etc.

Kia is going to clean up with the Soul and they have a slightly larger version of it coming out in a few months. My wife didn't like it (she didn't drive it), but I think it's perfect for around town.

I ended up with an Avalon Hybrid which was priced at about the same as a Camry Hybrid (dealer wanted to move it)...

But, yeah, Toyota and Honda and Kia, etc. are going to wipe up Ford and GM because they actually think about things.
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Old Yesterday, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
4,554 posts, read 1,506,011 times
Reputation: 6523
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
I think I'm with the old Steve Jobs saying "People don't know what they want".
You do realize that statement means "...until our marketing department tells them what they want." ?

The most naked admission of the attitude ever... and high-level marketing execs and gurus are anything but shy about saying such things.


But of course, that has nothing to do with trucky-SUV-CUV-Xover mania. Those are only bought for the hardest of practical reasons.
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Old Yesterday, 06:36 PM
 
1,289 posts, read 1,510,802 times
Reputation: 1056
[quote=Quietude;54123243]...winch you back up so you can do it again...


...and again...


...and again. It's just frickin' amazing.


Well, we're even; I completely fail to understand the slobbering truck-love that makes you guys start swinging a baseball bat around every time someone mentions another market segment. Understand, I like trucks; my dad built a series of '56 Custom Cabs that are probably still treasured by their owners and I wish I had one. But I don't drive one because it doesn't fit my tastes or my needs.

There isn't any "Ford hate" here anyway, just amazement that they've swallowed the Bud Lite drinker's line that pickups and pretendy-trucks will just continue to take over the market, forever more, to the point of abandoning century-old market segments. Ford isn't a niche maker; they are one of two or three full-line international makers and always have been. And if any company should have the lessons of short-sighted product decisions down and have learned from them, it's Ford.

Fine, fine, let them play to the moment and drop everything that isn't an F-150 or a pretend-a-like. But you might want to bookmark one of these discussions for reference when, oh, about 2021 the market whims shift and their corporate sales tank and they go hat in hand whining for a bailout.[/QUOTE ]

You are failing to understand Ford is filling the gaps left by their sedans with new crossovers, EVís, etc. The new Eco-Sport, Baby Bronco and real Bronco would be some examples. itís not just about pickups.

That being said, what did you expect them to do with the Focus? Good car, but big money loser and no way to make it profitable anytime soon. To make it profitable, at current sales levels (which isnít a given) they would need a 20% material cost reduction just to post a variable profit. Thatís nearly impossible for them to do,
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Old Yesterday, 06:45 PM
 
1,527 posts, read 533,264 times
Reputation: 2860
soft sedan market made my new sedan super cheap.
$19K less than the brand's similar wheelbase SUV.
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Old Yesterday, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
4,554 posts, read 1,506,011 times
Reputation: 6523
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
That being said, what did you expect them to do with the Focus? Good car, but big money loser and no way to make it profitable anytime soon. To make it profitable, at current sales levels (which isn’t a given) they would need a 20% material cost reduction just to post a variable profit. That’s nearly impossible for them to do,
I don't know. I don't run the place and I long ago sold my F stock.

But running one of the real corporate/multinational juggernauts on the planet demands foresight and planning for the future, and very few American companies can see further than the next quarterly report. We're many decades into the era where corporations - giant corporations - make monumental decisions based on the shortest and most erratic trends, because C-level jobs are riding on that stock price and short-term dividends.

So fine, public taste is for trucks and (because of little more than marketing pressure) cars that vaguely resemble trucks. I've said it over and over here that automotive fashion is fickle and erratic and makes hemlines and lipstick colors look like ancient verities sometimes. For Ford to cast aside all past wisdom and all reason and basically drop market lines that have sustained them for over 100 years - not just minimize, not just sideline, not just hold steady on, but drop - is an insanely short-sighted decision, and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it's going to come back and bite them on their corporate tail, big time. Not because I'm some kind of guru with a magic ball, just someone who isn't falling-down-drunk on pick'em'up juice and has a solid sense of automotive history.

And in general, it's nothing new. All of the big makers have made horrendously expensive, stupid, short-sighted decisions for just this kind of faulty, quarterly-profit thinking. And unless Ford is very, very lucky and re-adapts quickly when the current fads and whims pass, they will not survive without taking a huge piece of the US economy down or getting a massive bailout... and we'll have to pay the price because they were too stupid to think past 2019.
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Old Yesterday, 09:45 PM
 
1,289 posts, read 1,510,802 times
Reputation: 1056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
I don't know. I don't run the place and I long ago sold my F stock.

But running one of the real corporate/multinational juggernauts on the planet demands foresight and planning for the future, and very few American companies can see further than the next quarterly report. We're many decades into the era where corporations - giant corporations - make monumental decisions based on the shortest and most erratic trends, because C-level jobs are riding on that stock price and short-term dividends.

So fine, public taste is for trucks and (because of little more than marketing pressure) cars that vaguely resemble trucks. I've said it over and over here that automotive fashion is fickle and erratic and makes hemlines and lipstick colors look like ancient verities sometimes. For Ford to cast aside all past wisdom and all reason and basically drop market lines that have sustained them for over 100 years - not just minimize, not just sideline, not just hold steady on, but drop - is an insanely short-sighted decision, and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it's going to come back and bite them on their corporate tail, big time. Not because I'm some kind of guru with a magic ball, just someone who isn't falling-down-drunk on pick'em'up juice and has a solid sense of automotive history.

And in general, it's nothing new. All of the big makers have made horrendously expensive, stupid, short-sighted decisions for just this kind of faulty, quarterly-profit thinking. And unless Ford is very, very lucky and re-adapts quickly when the current fads and whims pass, they will not survive without taking a huge piece of the US economy down or getting a massive bailout... and we'll have to pay the price because they were too stupid to think past 2019.
You have no idea what is really going on inside that company. If you think dropping some gas powered sedans was done to pump-up short-term profits you are wrong. Whether you agree with the decision or not, it was done because they feel that's the best decision for the company long-term.

It doesn't matter whether we are talking about the Fiesta, Focus, Escort, Tempo, Taurus, Fusion or whatever - they all lost a lot of money for the company. With the CAFE rules/penalties now calculated differently there is no reason to keep them around anymore. They no longer assist with reducing those penalties. (Same reason the Ranger got killed several years ago on the truck side.)

There was no way to make them profitable in the short or medium term so why continue to sell money losing products? Just because some people think they should? Give me a break....if you owned a business that sold 25 products, and a few of them were money losers, you'd look to either fix that or stop selling them as well. Any reasonable business person would...and Ford determined it could not be fixed anytime soon.

What you don't know, similar to what happened with the Ranger, there is a chance of bringing one or two of those sedans back at some point in the future. It can't be for at least 2 years due to union/purchasing contracts but it could happen. Just like with the Ranger, there is an active program being evaluated (a worldwide platform) but it won't make it past the board in the US until they can show it will be profitable here. This T6 Ranger program actually started development in 2005, four years before the old Ranger program got discontinued, and it was worked on for years until finally it made it here this year.

If Ford was going to remake a car like the Fusion, for instance, they needed to break away from their current manufacturing location and supply base. Tear it down and start over. That's what they may or may not do depending on the market/business case.
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Old Today, 01:28 AM
Status: "Free Bird - Eagle has landed" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Washington State
16,315 posts, read 8,488,002 times
Reputation: 13867
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean1the1 View Post
I know it's a stretch, but sedan sales are down across the board including in the luxury auto market. However, there may be one glimmer of hope who might that be? Tesla, Tesla model 3 sales were more than any luxury vehicles including SUVs. The model 3 sold double the amount of vehicles as the next luxury sedan.

https://electrek.co/2019/01/09/tesla...um-vehicle-us/
The piston engine sedan is dead ( I believe I've bought my last but what a sedan the HC is) and will be replaced in the coming years with EV's such as the Model 3. SUV's trucks, busses to follow in time.
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