Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thank you. I will check the list and see if the SUbarus have new head gaskets. We do want AWD. We live in a snowy/icy area and our daughters are inexperienced drivers. I want to give them every edge that they can get. It is not needed all that often, but on the occaisions when I needed in my truck, I drove past dozens of cars including front wheel drive cars that were stuck ont eh freeway and roads. When I could I stopped to help them and that made me feel good as an added advatange. When there were ten or more stuck cars on the freeway and I had to get somewhere, I could not help them all so I drove around them. But it sure was nice to be able to do so instead of joining them.
We had a Suabaru XT turbo years ago that was terrible. THe trubo charger was ater cooled and leaked coolant into the exhaust. It could nto be repaired without replacing the entire engine (cannot remember why, but we even took it to a turbocharger shop and they confirmed this). We dumped three or four bottles of bars leak into it and got a year or so out of it before it started leaking again. Then we traded it in. It left my wife with a generally bad perception of Subaru.
I like them however and they seem to have a great reputation.
There are a lot of comments on the internet about the Volvos always being in the shop and being very expensive to repair. Other people have told me that this is not true.
Did you get 28 mpg with a Subaru wagon? Everything I saw indicated about 21-23 mpg. The volvos were listed at 20-21 for average driving. I saw people saying that they get 33 mpg with a sedan, but not with a wagon.
Coldjensens ... OK, AWD sounds like a good thing to have in your situation. FWIW, the Subie is well rated for safety along with the Volvo; neither has an advantage in this regard although I think the Subie is less expensive for insurance rating and repairs than the Volvo.
Yes, my 1998 Subie Outback 2.5 ltr with 250,000+++ miles on it still turns in 28 mpg on the stuff they sell for gasoline today at our altitude of 6,000'. It used to get closer to 30 mpg on better quality gasoline years ago. You may reasonably expect better fuel economy at a sea level elevation as the motor breathes more efficiently there. I upshift it at 3,500 RPM when accelerating, and rarely drive it under load below 2,000 RPM ... this motor isn't very happy below 2,000 under load.
For comparison, my wife's 1995 Subie Legacy Wagon (225,000 miles on it, original ... and could use a valve job which I will do later this summer) with the 2.2 ltr motor turns in 30-32 mpg in her daily commute, which is mostly 65 mph for 60+ miles. The lighter car with the smaller displacement motor is slightly slower in acceleration, but not objectionably so. She "short shifts" it up through the gears with a moderate throttle and rarely exceeds 2,500 RPM with it until 5th gear as it gets up to 65 mph.
Both cars will get around in the same conditions that my 1996 Dodge 2500Diesel 4x4 goes through each winter. We're located in SE Wyoming, where black ice and slick conditions are more prevalent than deep snow on the roads. Even in snow drifts and accumulations, the Dodge doesn't have a real advantage over the Subies. Proof to us that the Subie is exceptionally capable and durable is that they've been the delivery car of choice for our rural area mail carriers for years around here ... only recently have they been coming off the road for replacements, generally after 3-400,000 miles of service (these cars were the RHD "postal" version of the Outback with the 2.5 motor and automatic transmissions ... sadly, no longer imported into the USA).
Volvos can be in the shop and can be expensive to repair. It all depends where you take them, and definitely with a car of that vintage, do not go anywhere near a dealership. Find the local Swedish shop where the Volvos and Saabs go, and follow them there, since the dealership is beyond expensive, and I have found they like to rebuild cars one part at a time as opposed to repairing them. Buying one that's pre-owned, you don't know if maintenance was done according to the book or not, which can be a death knell for any Volvo as they are tempermental and don't like deferred maintenance that you may be able to get away with in something like a Honda or Toyota.
The experiences I have had with that era of Volvo wagon are a mixed bag, as your research has shown. The AWDs have many more problems than the FWD. And, a FWD with traction control is a stable vehicle, and the newer V70s are great in the FWD, but AWD is spotty as well. They are solid, stable, wagons that are a notch higher in quality and appointments than the Subaru. One thing to check is that not all Volvos had the third-row seat in that era, since it was optional, even on the higher priced wagons. We had one that stickered close to $45k and did not come with one, rather it was a dealer acessory to have it installed (~$1000), and that was an '00. A sibling has a similar vehicle, an '00 XC70, and it's a third car and has its share of problematic issues, everything from eating brakes for breakfast to coolant leaks and oil leaks, and for some reason the steering wheel delaminated and looks horrible. It has also stopped, in the middle of traffic, for whatever reason, and the dealership cannot replicate or diagnose what is causing it, though the first time I think they replaced every sensor in the engine at under 60k miles. This was better, however, than the S80 of the same era that they had, and was more unreliable than a Jaguar, something which has improved over the years. The current S60 FWD sedan and V70 FWD wagon are very reliable and are worthy sucessors to the strong Volvos of old.
Get an independent Volvo mechanic inspection on any candidate, and try to find one with a full service history. You may pay a slight bit more for a vehicle with the documentation, but it may be much less expensive in the end, since you may be saving on deferred maintenance.
I do all my own work on my Volvo and have spent a little under $2k over the past 5 years maintaining it. Volvos are more an "enthusiast" car like a BMW would be. I drove the 98 subie and it simply does not compare to the experience you get driving the Volvo. It would be like comparing driving a Honda Civic to a Lexas sedan.
From the fit and finish to the braking system the Volvo takes the cake. Not that subaru's aren't reliable, they are great at doing what they do and since this is for your daughter I'd probably lean that way too. Volvo parts are relatively cheap online however so if you aren't afraid to get your hads dirty a bit they're easy to work on and fun to fix. I myself am looking for a cherry S/V 70 series to complete my "fleet".
The sweet thing about the older Volvos is you can pick up an older 850 for around $2k w/ 150k-200k on the clock and get another 100k-150k out of it for relatively little out of pocket costs. This car will give you 29-30 mpg highway and 24-25 mpg mixed, day in and out. They are one of the best bang for the buck cars out there IMO. I grew up in NH and drove the FWD 850 and the AWD subie around town and honestly it doesn't make that much of a difference. AWD is just something else to break (the 98 Subie had it's tranny rebuilt @ 130k).
Due to reliability, I would not buy a Jeep. Check the Consumer Reports ratings. Volvo's are expensive to repair and drive like a tank. The earlier poster is right about the Subaru engines with the head gasket problem. Don't buy anything earlier than 2000. We got our '01 Subaru Forester 2 1/2 years ago with 80,000 miles and have put 30k on it without any problems. The 4 cyl boxer engine has better power than one would expect. As it is AWD, the gas mileage is not great, 22 mpg average. It is a little tank in the snow (we are in NH). My teenage daughters drive it and my wife loves it as well. It has a huge sunroof which is nice in the summer...
I do all my own work on my Volvo and have spent a little under $2k over the past 5 years maintaining it. Volvos are more an "enthusiast" car like a BMW would be. I drove the 98 subie and it simply does not compare to the experience you get driving the Volvo. It would be like comparing driving a Honda Civic to a Lexas sedan.
From the fit and finish to the braking system the Volvo takes the cake. Not that subaru's aren't reliable, they are great at doing what they do and since this is for your daughter I'd probably lean that way too. Volvo parts are relatively cheap online however so if you aren't afraid to get your hads dirty a bit they're easy to work on and fun to fix. I myself am looking for a cherry S/V 70 series to complete my "fleet".
The sweet thing about the older Volvos is you can pick up an older 850 for around $2k w/ 150k-200k on the clock and get another 100k-150k out of it for relatively little out of pocket costs. This car will give you 29-30 mpg highway and 24-25 mpg mixed, day in and out. They are one of the best bang for the buck cars out there IMO. I grew up in NH and drove the FWD 850 and the AWD subie around town and honestly it doesn't make that much of a difference. AWD is just something else to break (the 98 Subie had it's tranny rebuilt @ 130k).
I agree that the Volvo is a nicer riding, better finished and appointed vehicle than the Subie. But it is only the equal of the Subie when it comes to being able to deliver transportation ... and it does so at a higher cost of ownership and operation.
That high mileage Volvo kept on the road for "relatively little out of pocket costs" will only happen IF an owner is a capable tech willing to work on the car as needed and purchase parts on-line. If it has to go to a retail shop for service and repairs, then it's more likely to be a money pit than an economical and sturdy vehicle for a teen-age driver. The days of the cast-iron 240 series are long past with the more recent offerings from Volvo, just like 2002 BMW's and 240D MB's are long past.
I can make the same observation about my cheap transportation BMW's and Alfa's ... but I'm a tech with years of experience, a workshop, the tools, and the wholesale parts sources. Unless the OP is an enthusiast and wants to have a project car and enjoys working on it ... as they will have to to keep it on the road ... it's not something I'd suggest to them as a first car for a teenager.
I'm very pleased with my '97 Subaru. Rides nice, and is better in every way than my little SUV. Much less rollover prone. Paid $1700 over a year ago for it. It had been neglected pretty bad, but with a few hundred dollars worth of parts, it's a very smooth, reliable car. We go everywhere in it, while the '04 SUV stays put.
Subaru's are very easy to work on, and not too bad to find parts for. Reliable, yes, but older cars of any kind will need a little repair now and then.
I'd skip the Jeep. I worked at a Jeep dealer in the mid-nineties. Wasn't very impressed.
I agree that the Volvo is a nicer riding, better finished and appointed vehicle than the Subie. But it is only the equal of the Subie when it comes to being able to deliver transportation ... and it does so at a higher cost of ownership and operation.
That high mileage Volvo kept on the road for "relatively little out of pocket costs" will only happen IF an owner is a capable tech willing to work on the car as needed and purchase parts on-line. If it has to go to a retail shop for service and repairs, then it's more likely to be a money pit than an economical and sturdy vehicle for a teen-age driver. The days of the cast-iron 240 series are long past with the more recent offerings from Volvo, just like 2002 BMW's and 240D MB's are long past.
I can make the same observation about my cheap transportation BMW's and Alfa's ... but I'm a tech with years of experience, a workshop, the tools, and the wholesale parts sources. Unless the OP is an enthusiast and wants to have a project car and enjoys working on it ... as they will have to to keep it on the road ... it's not something I'd suggest to them as a first car for a teenager.
Wait so what you are saying is that you agree with me?
You must've completely missed the previous sentence of the one you bolded in the same post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup
Not that subaru's aren't reliable, they are great at doing what they do and since this is for your daughter I'd probably lean that way too. Volvo parts are relatively cheap online however so if you aren't afraid to get your hads dirty a bit they're easy to work on and fun to fix.
Wait so what you are saying is that you agree with me?
You must've completely missed the previous sentence of the one you bolded in the same post:
Nope, didn't miss your point at all. You assert old Volvo's are cheap to keep running if you're buying an older model with a lot of miles already on it, seeking the remaining service life of the car. Those 850 series cars are older than what the OP is looking for his teenager, and will require more than a little attention and care to achieve those last service miles.
I do agree that the Volvo line is better finished and appointed than a Subie, but that's the only area where it's a "nicer" car. That little bit of "upscale" comes at a big price over the Subie's that the OP is looking at. I certainly wouldn't agree that the Volvo outbrakes a Subie, handles better, or is a "safer" car, or gets better fuel economy, or tire wear, or other consumables expenses.
Volvos are reasonably priced transportation cars only ... as you've identified in your own experience ... if you're willing and capable of maintaining and repairing them yourself. Similar to my old Alfa's and BMW's and MB diesels, I keep them on the road for next to nothing ... but if taken to a retail shop, they're expensive for parts and labor. I certainly wouldn't tell folks that these cars are cheap to keep in the general sense, because they're not unless you can locate the parts cheaply in the aftermarket (or, in my case, wholesale WD's) and do all the maintenance and repairs in-house.
OTOH, late model Subie's are much more reasonably priced, even if you have to pay someone to work on them. They're easy to work on and the parts pricing at retail is less than Volvo. So it's not a labor of love to keep a Subie on the road for comparable high mileage as it is a Volvo at a decent cost.
Overall, I get the impression that you'd accept a Subie as transportation for the OP's teenager, but in the perspective that they're giving up something of value in comparison to the Volvo. I disagree ... a '98 Subie is every bit the equal to the '98 Volvo series the OP's looking at in every way when it comes to performance, durability, practicality, fuel economy, climate control, ergonomics, braking, handling, interior volume, road manners, comfort, convenience, and safety; and delivers it at a lower cost per mile without having to do the maintenance and repairs yourself.
The only place I can find that the Volvo is "nicer" is that the seat bolsters and leather are of higher quality and feel "better" ... but that's not to say that the Subie won't hold up and be comfortable. True, also, the quality of the dash and trimmings appear "nicer", and the fit of pieces and covers is more detailed than in the Subie. These are nice expensive details, but they don't make the car get down the road any more than a "dynamite sound system" does. The leather in my '98 Subie has held up very well, and we're at 6,000' elevation, where UV degradation and a dry climate work their destruction on leather interiors. At well over 250,000 miles, the interior cleans up very well and still looks presentable for a salesman's car ... even if it doesn't have the "prestige" of a Volvo.
The other consideration is that it's very easy to find an independent Japanese shop that can handle a Subaru, but you really have to find the best independent Volvo mechanic in your area to find someone who can maintain the vehicle at reasonable cost as routine maintenace can be significantly higher when done by the book. The Volvo is in league with the A6 Avant Quattro and the Mercedes 4Matic wagons, even some of the BMW iTs, all of which have higher repair/maintenance costs, on average.
The Subaru is designed without some of the overly complex systems that are found in more luxury-oriented brands. Mercedes, for example, have had load leveling suspensions for years, but when the acumulators go, it's not an inexpensive repair, unless you can do it yourself for a few hundred dollars as opposed to $1500+. Similarly, the transfer case, the bane of certain early 4Matics are $1200-$1500 to replace, retail, when they go. This is not to say that the vehicle is unreliable or poorly engineered, but it has more complex systems that require a higher number of parts and subsequent labor to repair, which is in keeping with the original price, not the price of a previously owned example.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
