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If you have some free time, it's interesting to read comments on Rodman's finals performances against some of the pre-eminent forwards of their generation and like Kemp at his peak before he fell apart and of course Karl Malone.
Wiki has some nice finals recaps along with quotes from coach's etc.
Championships are nothing when it comes to individual prowess. Allen Iverson is by far the greatest two guard in NBA history after Kobe and Jordan obviously. Now, it's questionable to induct him in the Hall of Fame since he ended his career in midst of personal battles.
Good Lord, Allen Iverson is probably the most overrated player in NBA history. The guy pretty much NEVER made his teams better. The one time he went to the NBA Finals, it was because he had a great coach (Larry Brown) who surrounded him with exactly the right kind of players (unselfish, defense and rebound-first players who didn't need the ball to be effective players) to accentuate Iverson's type of game and the 76ers had fairy dust sprinkled on them and had a magical season. Iverson NEVER showed during an NBA season he could play with other players who needed the ball.
People are talking about Rodman's role on the 1996-1998 Bulls (when he filled in a somewhat more effective way the same role - 3rd best player on the team and best inside player - that Horace Grant filled on the 1991-1993 Bulls), but what about his role on the Bad Boy Pistons that won back-to-back titles in 1989 and 1990? Those Pistons teams, which had no superstars (sorry Isiah Thomas) but a few stars and a number of very good role players, may not win those titles if Rodman isn't on the team.
Those Pistons teams, which had no superstars (sorry Isiah Thomas)
Gonna have to disagree with you there BIGTIME. Isiah Thomas is probably a top 25 player all-time, an easy top 5 point guard all-time, a standout in an era which featured Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Dominique etc etc in their primes. Not a superstar? Wha.....?
Gonna have to disagree with you there BIGTIME. Isiah Thomas is probably a top 25 player all-time, an easy top 5 point guard all-time, a standout in an era which featured Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Dominique etc etc in their primes. Not a superstar? Wha.....?
To me personally, Isiah was always a little overrated (and yes, I know he had some great games, like the game where he scored I think 25 points in the 3rd quarter in I think Game 6 of the 1988 NBA Finals). Maybe that's because he was a 6'1" point guard and historically guys like that can't and don't carry a team to a title. By contrast, I think Joe Dumars has always been a little underrated and was nearly as good a player as Isiah Thomas; to me Dumars carried almost as much of the load as Isiah. Isiah's actions in a few cases (saying Larry Bird was overrated because he was white, not shaking hands with the Bulls' players after the Bulls won the 1991 Eastern Conference Finals, not supporting his "friend" Magic Johnson when Magic announced he had the HIV virus) also make him seem smaller in my mind. Really though, the thing that probably makes me rate Isiah Thomas a little lower than most people the most is those Pistons teams, more than just about any other NBA championship team in the last 30 years (probably except, ironically enough, the 2004 Pistons), really were a whole that was greater than the sum of its parts in my mind.
I won't argue that I may underrate Isiah Thomas a little bit relative to what he actually was as a player.
To me personally, Isiah was always a little overrated (and yes, I know he had some great games, like the game where he scored I think 25 points in the 3rd quarter in I think Game 6 of the 1988 NBA Finals). Maybe that's because he was a 6'1" point guard and historically guys like that can't and don't carry a team to a title. By contrast, I think Joe Dumars has always been a little underrated and was nearly as good a player as Isiah Thomas; to me Dumars carried almost as much of the load as Isiah.
Dumars was very good, not on Isiah's level as a player though. Even so, Isiah having quality teammates shouldn't detract from his greatness. If it does, then you'd have to apply the same argument to Magic, Jordan, and Bird, all of whom had HOF teammates. Hell, Bird was part of the greatest frontline in NBA history, Magic played with a top 5 all-time player in Kareem, Worthy, Scott, etc. It certainly didn't take anything away from their respective greatness as players.
I concur with your statement about great players having great teammates, Greg1977. I just rate Isiah Thomas a little lower than most other people; I think he was a great player but not really an all-time great player. To me, the Bad Boys Pistons teams won more on system and team cohesiveness than talent, rather than the other way around.
I concur with your statement about great players having great teammates, Greg1977. I just rate Isiah Thomas a little lower than most other people; I think he was a great player but not really an all-time great player. To me, the Bad Boys Pistons teams won more on system and team cohesiveness than talent, rather than the other way around.
That's fine, it's all subjective. I mainly took issue with your comment that he wasn't a superstar.
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