Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The stats I posted for Jordan's finals averages were from when he was 27.
No one wants to touch Jordan outjumping Lebron either apparantly.
People want to start talking about "more athletic" and the minute you pull out 40-speeds and vert leap....<poof> they disappear.
We simply won't agree on what makes one guy more athletic than another. Most NBA wing players can jump high. Some higher than others. Few can guard big players and small players. That is part of athleticism as well. Personally, I am more impressed by that.
A dunk is a dunk. It doesn't matter if they player is 40 inches off the ground or 49 inches off the ground. However, LeBron guarding everyone from Pau Gasol to Derrick Rose is more physically impressive than a really high dunk. It is impressive because most players don't have the physical build nor the athleticism to pull it off. LeBron is one of the rare players who does.
However, LeBron guarding everyone from Pau Gasol to Derrick Rose is more physically impressive than a really high dunk.
This is a bit of an overstatement that has gained steam in the last few years. This 'Lebron can guard every position in the NBA' myth. At best( like in the 2011 ECFs against Chicago) he was able to cover Rose at the end of a few games, playing him for the drive while his teammates closed out on the shooters and shut down the driving lanes, effectively neutralizing Rose and the Bulls offense.That was actually a very good team defensive effort by the Heat, and I always chuckle when Lebron gets 100% credit for 'shutting down Rose' over a 2 minute late-game stretch.
Lebron could not guard Derrick Rose over the course of 48 minutes, nor could he guard someone like Pau Gasol for more than a few minute stretch. At best you could put him on an average PF who isn't a great scoring threat, but he can't guard any prolific low-post scoring PF or center over the course of 48 minutes. Kudos to him for having the defensive versatility to guard multiple positions, but he would not and could not effectively guard those players you mentioned for an entire game.
...but he would not and could not effectively guard those players you mentioned for an entire game.
Greg,
That can be said regarding any prolific player. Guys like Wade, Kobe, Rose, Dirk, Howard, etc. can't be shut down by anyone at their own position. And that is what you are describing above. You are talking about shutting a player down for an entire game. Prolific scorers are such because they can't be shut down for entire games. Russell Westbrook is a great combo guard. He can't shut down Wade (another great guard) for an entire game. But he will spend time guarding him. However, he will never spend time guarding Al Jefferson or even Rudy Gay.
That's my point. You can put LeBron on a guy nearly seven feet tall and have him be effective in spurts. You can put him on speedy six foot guard have him be effective at key points in the game. That level of athletic versatility is very rare. It is more valuable than being able to jump higher than your contemporaries. But like I said before I don't expect us all to agree.
That can be said regarding any prolific player. Guys like Wade, Kobe, Rose, Dirk, Howard, etc. can't be shut down by anyone at their own position. And that is what you are describing above. You are talking about shutting a player down for an entire game. Prolific scorers are such because they can't be shut down for entire games. Russell Westbrook is a great combo guard. He can't shut down Wade (another great guard) for an entire game. But he will spend time guarding him. However, he will never spend time guarding Al Jefferson or even Rudy Gay.
That's my point. You can put LeBron on a guy nearly seven feet tall and have him be effective in spurts. You can put him on speedy six foot guard have him be effective at key points in the game. That level of athletic versatility is very rare. It is more valuable than being able to jump higher than your contemporaries. But like I said before I don't expect us all to agree.
If you had specified originally that Lebron is capable of guarding different positions in spurts, I'd agree with you( and said as much earlier). I didn't get from your earlier comment that you meant 'in spurts'; just able to guard in the general sense. But heck, that kind of 'athletic defensive versatility'( I guess that's the right term for it) isn't unheard of. Dennis Rodman guarded everyone from Michael Jordan to Shaquille Oneal. Jordan and Pippen could credibly guard positions 1-3, with Pippen even doing spot duty on guys like Malone and Barkley. That kind of versatility is a rare gift, but Lebron's not the first to be able to do it( not saying you're suggesting he is, just throwing that out there). Hell, I remember back to the 1996 ECF finals Bulls vs Magic; Rodman was guarding Shaq for most of the game, ditto for the following year with Mourning in the 97 playoffs.
If you had specified originally that Lebron is capable of guarding different positions in spurts, I'd agree with you( and said as much earlier). I didn't get from your earlier comment that you meant 'in spurts'; just able to guard in the general sense. But heck, that kind of 'athletic defensive versatility'( I guess that's the right term for it) isn't unheard of. Dennis Rodman guarded everyone from Michael Jordan to Shaquille Oneal. Jordan and Pippen could credibly guard positions 1-3, with Pippen even doing spot duty on guys like Malone and Barkley. That kind of versatility is a rare gift, but Lebron's not the first to be able to do it( not saying you're suggesting he is, just throwing that out there). Hell, I remember back to the 1996 ECF finals Bulls vs Magic; Rodman was guarding Shaq for most of the game, ditto for the following year with Mourning in the 97 playoffs.
But if we forget history all-together, then what Lebron has done makes him more athletic! .
I mean after pointing out that he is slower, jumps less, has a higher vertical jumping reach.....then now we get to hear how he is this *vague* better spurt defender.....which OF COURSE means he is more athletic.
This thread should be immortalized as an example of the epic moving goal posts. Refute something and the argument just <shifts>
This coming from the guy that acknowledges that Lebron is the best player in the league right now and who knows how much he may acheive in his life. I've already predicted him to be the argable ATG at the SF position.
But no. We have to hear how he is more athletic than Jordan.......
The fact there is no agreed upon criteria for "better athlete" means different people will have different ideas. There is no moving of the goal posts going on. We just have different ideas of what makes one a better athlete.
The fact there is no agreed upon criteria for "better athlete" means different people will have different ideas. There is no moving of the goal posts going on. We just have different ideas of what makes one a better athlete.
Thats no overstatement on Phil's part; Rodman was a freakish athlete.
Anyways, I'm not sure what you mean by moving goalposts but I haven't said anything to that effect in our exchanges.
Thats no overstatement on Phil's part; Rodman was a freakish athlete.
Anyways, I'm not sure what you mean by moving goalposts but I haven't said anything to that effect in our exchanges.
Greg,
I should have been clearer. The part about the "goal posts" was to Mathguy's comment.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
.