California High Speed Rail: Final Cost Could Top $200 BILLION (construction, costs)

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by MattClyde

I don't think the HSR will help with traffic congestion, CA is too large of a state so why build it. Can someone give me a list of pros for the HSR

Its supposed to help reduce the usage of the Regional Airport system in Cali , which can be seen in the NE. Amtrak has eaten a huge chunk of the Regional Airport travel market , about 40% of the Travel market is done by train now. So just like of the wonders it can do for congested Cali Airports , the Regional Flights are actually Boons for the Industry and add unnecessary congestion...there also subsidized by the tax payers.... Regional Rail does take cars off the roads , like a few lines around here that carry 120,000 people. But to get that high you need connections like Light Rail or strong bus service , so once you have those Regional Rail ridership will be high and then in turn so HSR....

[a34dadsf]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Orly , HSR makes sense....but to build in this country you have to get trough some whacky regulations hench why they shy away from Rail projects in general. If we had European Regulations most of the Rail Transit Industry would be private... I doubt it would be 10 Billion $$ in Subsides , the Acela runs on private so do the Japanese and Germany. Across the world in Asia and Europe, with the exception of China HSR is built privately or 50/50. Theres no reason why one of the world's largest Economies should not have HSR....unless you want to be embarrassed when the Northeast gets HSR.....

As far as I know the HSR in japan and Germany are subsidized by the government and had financial incentives in place to get the investors to initially buy into the projects.

Also jet travel is far cheaper and faster than building HSR.

At present, building HSR doesn't make sense. It only makes sense when energy prices are high. Like 200$+ oil.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by a34dadsf

As far as I know the HSR in japan and Germany are subsidized by the government and had financial incentives in place to get the investors to initially buy into the projects.

Also jet travel is far cheaper and faster than building HSR.

At present, building HSR doesn't make sense. It only makes sense when energy prices are high. Like 200$+ oil.

The Japanese HSR runs on profit , so does the Acela and Germany's ICE.....if they can why wouldn't CAHSR be any different? Jet travel is cheaper now but that won't last and adding Capacity to LAX , SFO , and SD will become next to impossible over the next decades.... And i doubt Oil will stay cheap after this decade.....its already starting to become more expensive in Europe and Asia. When will HSR make sense , it seems we keep putting it off and for no good reason except ignorance....and stupidity. I can't beleave one of the Worlds Largest Economies thinks HSR won't work and shouldn't be built there.....

[jkbatca]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

The Japanese HSR runs on profit , so does the Acela and Germany's ICE.....if they can why wouldn't CAHSR be any different?

As this analysis from UC Berkeley says, California does not equal New Jersey / Germany / Japan. In the HSR cases you cite, you can either walk or get on a commuter train / subway to the station and do the same at the other end.

In California, population is relatively thinly distributed, so I would have to drive an hour or two just to get to a station, and then when I get off I would have to rent a car to do the same. If I'm going HSR from LA to San Jose, my whole day is shot anyway and I'm driving a rental car. I can drive the same distance and keep driving my own car at the destination.

Worse, what if I want to go to beyond, say Lake Tahoe? I have to ride a train part way, get off, rent a car, then drive anways. Might as well drive my car all the way up.

What if I have to get to San Jose in the morning from LA. Still taking the plane. By the time HSR is run through all those committees, it will be stopping at every podunk place and winding up taking all day anyways.

So you see, you cannot apply Acela / Japan / France to California.

[Malloric]

Originally Posted by a34dadsf

As far as I know the HSR in japan and Germany are subsidized by the government and had financial incentives in place to get the investors to initially buy into the projects.

Also jet travel is far cheaper and faster than building HSR.

At present, building HSR doesn't make sense. It only makes sense when energy prices are high. Like 200$+ oil.

Past a certain volume, rail is far less expensive than flying. The problem with rail is that it has huge upfront costs as compared to air travel. That said, most people drive because flying these days is such hassle with the airports being so crowded and everyone terrified of boogeymen blowing up their flight. To fly to LA I drive to Sacrament (1 hour), sit around doing nothing (at least an hour), flight (hour and a half), get stuck waiting for baggage in LAX (30 minutes, if lucky), taxi to downtown (30 minutes to an hour). Total time: ~5-6 hours. With HSR the trip would take less than three hours total. I really don't know if there's enough volume for it to make sense. I'd certainly rather take the train than drive, especially for a business trip. Now if we're talking longer distance (Seattle, Midwest, East Coast), I'm flying. Dealing with airports to go 400 miles just isn't worth it.

[MattClyde]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Its supposed to help reduce the usage of the Regional Airport system in Cali , which can be seen in the NE. Amtrak has eaten a huge chunk of the Regional Airport travel market , about 40% of the Travel market is done by train now. So just like of the wonders it can do for congested Cali Airports , the Regional Flights are actually Boons for the Industry and add unnecessary congestion...there also subsidized by the tax payers.... Regional Rail does take cars off the roads , like a few lines around here that carry 120,000 people. But to get that high you need connections like Light Rail or strong bus service , so once you have those Regional Rail ridership will be high and then in turn so HSR....

ok thanks, I don't really know much about this issue. But I guess that is ok because I moved to CO

[Wilson502]

I believe the current figure for the final cost for the HSR is somewhere around $47 billion. Far far cry from $200 billion. You could probably build it up to oregon or washington for $200 billion

[SunJoaquin]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

What a fiasco. Let's kill this now.



$200 Billion could completely modernize all our major airports and seaports, modernize all of our urban freeways, expand existing public transit and we'd still have change left over.

And, right now, you can assume that it would cost a lot more than that. Because construction of any kind ALWAYS costs more than is estimated.

It's way too late for this. They needed to jump on the opportunity in the mid-80's. The state cannot afford it in no way, shape or form, and the federal government should have no business even considering it. I do not, and never have believed, that this speed rail would be self-supporting or even make much of a profit. With that, it isn't worth uprooting people from their homes, cutting into farmland, and sinking the state into an even deeper hole.

[Kobe25]

200 billion sounds about right....a subway leading directly to the lax or the beach,how cool would that be than maybe wider freeway lanes or super advanced elevators that can carry our vehicles to they're destination would be sum futuristic type stuff but if Cali can't do it it can't be done

[citynomad]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

The Japanese HSR runs on profit , so does the Acela and Germany's ICE.....if they can why wouldn't CAHSR be any different? Jet travel is cheaper now but that won't last and adding Capacity to LAX , SFO , and SD will become next to impossible over the next decades.... And i doubt Oil will stay cheap after this decade.....its already starting to become more expensive in Europe and Asia. When will HSR make sense , it seems we keep putting it off and for no good reason except ignorance....and stupidity. I can't beleave one of the Worlds Largest Economies thinks HSR won't work and shouldn't be built there.....

HSR is going to work in Cali and the rest of America except western Idaho and deep Alabama, of course. Ridership with rail (Acela) keeps rising year after year. And yes, oil won't last that long.