Why do people hate California? (San Diego: tornado, trailer, car)

[nslander]

Originally Posted by happycrow

nslander,

You're conflating how states are governed versus federal politics. They're not the same thing, and if you were less of a rube, you'd understand that. Neither am I going to launch into a five-page lecture on US financial history, Bretton Woods, and the petrodollar in the middle of a forum discussing state-level governance. It's just plain OT.

If you actually want to learn something, DM me. Otherwise, sorry, not going there.

Aside from the inextricable nature of state and national politics in a federal system, one common thread of state governance and Federal politics is the discernment of the represented. Assailing one expression of that discernment implicates the other. When citizens of one state impeach the political wisdom of another state at every possible opportunity, those citizens put their own political decision-making at issue.

If you don't want to go there, that's fine, but I'd prefer to keep this in full daylight. The political decisions of the people of this state are repeatedly cited as reasons "why people hate California", making the issue decidedly on-topic. So, if you have any explanation as to why your state's political will expressed at the national level intentionally caused damage to the United States, including California, I'd like to hear it. Or we could simply stipulate to the obvious: there was no legitimate reason.

[Social Democrat]

To the OP's question - ignorance.

[happycrow]

Originally Posted by dalparadise

I honestly did not mean it to be patronizing. I think your perspective is qute accurate and your skill in presenting it is refreshingly high in this context.

I don't agree with everything you have written, but am respectful of your opinions due to your civil tone and well constructed points made to me.

As a writer, you know that saying things in and of itself is insufficient for communication -- one must also consider how such things are perceived. Your conflict with our gal from Houston for instance, to my eyes primarily appears to be one of style, not of substance. Or, if there is substance, I haven't been able to find it in the past few pages. Now, Texans have their own issues, and plenty of them -- hit the forum here, and you'll see them live and in-color.

Californians, on the other hand, truly ought to learn to be significantly more open-minded about the solutions and methods other states use -- that is, after all, the entire point of the "Wisconsin Idea" of progressivism which so many Californians espouse (or would, if they would do more reading and less mindless recycling of moveon.org talking points) -- each separate state is a "laboratory of Democracy," allowing the others to adopt the lessons learned by any individual state in the process. Many of my former-fellow-Californians appear to simply hold the rest of the country in contempt. And it shows... in lost business, municipal bankruptcies, world-class cities with Gini coefficients so high that middle-class families have to migrate to the interior in order stay near their next generation (as my family in SF has had to do, now barely affording to remain in Livermore with a brutal commute), and a public school system which performs even worse than the one where I live now (and given how Texas' educational issues routinely make the news, let's be honest: for California as a whole to be not only comparable, but markedly worse, is truly an embarrassment).

"A lot of folks in California are in denial about the economy in the state...Behind those statistics are real suffering."
"We've been candidly resting on our laurels a bit. We've got to get back on our game."
-- Gavin Newsom

I'm not a big Newsom fan. I think he's basically living off corporate money. But I think he's dead on the money here. California can, should, and must do better.

[nslander]

Originally Posted by happycrow

As a writer, you know that saying things in and of itself is insufficient for communication -- one must also consider how such things are perceived. Your conflict with our gal from Houston for instance, to my eyes primarily appears to be one of style, not of substance. Or, if there is substance, I haven't been able to find it in the past few pages. Now, Texans have their own issues, and plenty of them -- hit the forum here, and you'll see them live and in-color.

Californians, on the other hand, truly ought to learn to be significantly more open-minded about the solutions and methods other states use -- that is, after all, the entire point of the "Wisconsin Idea" of progressivism which so many Californians espouse (or would, if they would do more reading and less mindless recycling of moveon.org talking points) -- each separate state is a "laboratory of Democracy," allowing the others to adopt the lessons learned by any individual state in the process. Many of my former-fellow-Californians appear to simply hold the rest of the country in contempt. And it shows... in lost business, municipal bankruptcies, world-class cities with Gini coefficients so high that middle-class families have to migrate to the interior in order stay near their next generation (as my family in SF has had to do, now barely affording to remain in Livermore with a brutal commute), and a public school system which performs even worse than the one where I live now (and given how Texas' educational issues routinely make the news, let's be honest: for California as a whole to be not only comparable, but markedly worse, is truly an embarrassment).

"A lot of folks in California are in denial about the economy in the state...Behind those statistics are real suffering."
"We've been candidly resting on our laurels a bit. We've got to get back on our game."
-- Gavin Newsom

I'm not a big Newsom fan. I think he's basically living off corporate money. But I think he's dead on the money here. California can, should, and must do better.

I share your opinion of Newsom. He's a pandering, empty suit. It's also notable that comment was made during a trip he made to Texas in what was commonly perceived at the time as a cynical shot at the man to whom he lost the gubernatorial nomination. It's exactly the kind of comment one would expect from, well, a pandering, empty suit.

FWIW, what you interpret as "contempt" of other states I perceive as frustration at relentless agenda-pushing from those, both locally and nationally, without giving fair consideration the specifics that contributed to the matter at hand. Schools are a good example. Texas gets more bang from its equally miserly buck. Not saying much, but its true. Its the "why" that's important, and what is too often lost in the ideological scrum.

Any honest discussion of the trend of CA public schools must address Prop 13, not only for its causing uncertainty in budgeting and deficit, but also for its shifting of the funding burden from the local to the state level, and the correlating elimination of local involvement in funding decision-making and responsiveness.

The effects of this have been decades in the making and may take just as long to remediate. However, just in the last year, the state has passed Prop 30 to restore certain funding, and the leg has passed "local funding control formula". The first should gradually return per-pupil spending to the national average, and the second will return a significant measure of discretionary funding authority to the local level. Together, these are the most significant changes to the funding of our schools in 35 years, yet their existences are largely unknown to those hammering at away at the state. Instead, the vague castigation of CA's schools address none of the above, and exclusively blame fat-cat teachers, Brown and the Brown Man. Sometimes, problems are more complex than what many want to believe.

[UB50]

I don't know many people who don't like Texans. I think it's the state that people despise.

I find Texas reactive in a lot of ways, while I find California to be more proactive. Looking at the water systems of both states provides a good example of that. The Obamacare implementation is another.

[UB50]

Does anyone think Texas is going to be "Heaven on Earth" when the state gains another 10 million people? How will the infrastructure support that? What is the state doing now to make things better then? (Because we all know this is going to happen.)

[nslander]

Originally Posted by UB50

Does anyone think Texas is going to be "Heaven on Earth" when the state gains another 10 million people? How will the infrastructure support that? What is the state doing now to make things better then? (Because we all know this is going to happen.)

That's a very good question, but one best left to Texans to answer. If their current problems were exacerbated by the influx, I would not presume to address their state specific issues for them.

[happycrow]

The Texas forum has LOTS of discussions about water, if y'all are interested.

Because the two cultures tend to be at odds, much finds itself feeling defensive from the other. CA feels embattled by others now -- the rest of the US felt embattled when CA tried to use CAFE standards to force the entire automotive industry to retool in the late 90s (early proposals of which would have made pickup trucks, an absolutely necessity of Great Plains culture, prohibitively expensive). Then of course we have the stupidity of the culture wars.

Because the early Progressives were unapologetic technocrats (the 20th century not having shown what that leads to), you'll find them mostly centered around "scientific" solutions, but here's a good place to start:
The Wisconsin idea - Charles McCarthy - Google Books

[UB50]

Originally Posted by nslander

That's a very good question, but one best left to Texans to answer. If their current problems were exacerbated by the influx, I would not presume to address their state specific issues for them.

I moved to California (the last time) when the population was around 25 million. It's now at 39 million. It took 30 years to do this. Let's say Texas makes the same jump and goes from 25 million to 40 million in the next 30 years.

How wonderful will the Texas miracle be then? Do you think prices will go up or down? Do you think taxes will go up or down? Do you think regulation will go up or down? Do you think the state's needs will go up or down? Do you think pollution will be better or worse? Traffic? Water supply?

[nslander]

Originally Posted by UB50

I moved to California (the last time) when the population was around 25 million. It's now at 39 million. It took 30 years to do this. Let's say Texas makes the same jump and goes from 25 million to 40 million in the next 30 years.

How wonderful will the Texas miracle be then? Do you think prices will go up or down? Do you think taxes will go up or down? Do you think regulation will go up or down? Do you think the state's needs will go up or down? Do you think pollution will be better or worse? Traffic? Water supply?

Dunno. I'll defer to Texans.