CA is about to become the toughest state on guns (Oakland: theatre, live in)

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by cphil19

That's simply not true.

Black market sales only make up about 14 percent of illegally owned guns. The vast majority stems from STEALING from those law abiding citizens you mentioned, as well as and straw market sales (paying someone you know to buy it for you through conventional means).

The obvious consensus is we must get guns out of circulation and the best way to do that is to have strict laws around them.

The first part is true, most crime guns are stollen a or purchased illegally.

You will never get guns out of circulation, their are more guns than their are people in this country. The only thing that will happen if you make guns illegal is regular people who do not commit crime will turn in their guns and then only criminals would have guns. Doesn't sound like the best plan. Your plan would be as successful as the war in drugs (not successful) and all you will do is violate the most basic human right of self defense.

[MrWillys]

Originally Posted by cphil19

That's simply not true.

Black market sales only make up about 14 percent of illegally owned guns. The vast majority stems from STEALING from those law abiding citizens you mentioned, as well as and straw market sales (paying someone you know to buy it for you through conventional means).

The obvious consensus is we must get guns out of circulation and the best way to do that is to have strict laws around them.

This is not true, and is an urban myth spread purposefully in order to gain a pro-gun agenda. In 2000, the ATF did a 2 1/2 year study. Number one was Straw market sales as you mentioned, but number 2 was Gun Show sales. 33 states allow gun show sales without background checks with the exception of FFL dealers. Only 50% of gun show sales are made by FFL dealers. During the study more than 85,000 firearms fell into the hands of criminals. Straw market sales are impossible to prosecute, because it can't be proven the seller was aware. The US has the most liberal laws when it comes to gun sales of any industrialized nation. Only 3rd world countries where anarchy and chaos prevail are as bad. I'm all for the 2nd amendment, but allowing this too occur knowingly is ridiculous.

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by MrWillys

This is not true, and is an urban myth spread purposefully in order to gain a pro-gun agenda. In 2000, the ATF did a 2 1/2 year study. Number one was Straw market sales as you mentioned, but number 2 was Gun Show sales. 33 states allow gun show sales without background checks with the exception of FFL dealers. Only 50% of gun show sales are made by FFL dealers. During the study more than 85,000 firearms fell into the hands of criminals. Straw market sales are impossible to prosecute, because it can't be proven the seller was aware. The US has the most liberal laws when it comes to gun sales of any industrialized nation. Only 3rd world countries where anarchy and chaos prevail are as bad. I'm all for the 2nd amendment, but allowing this too occur knowingly is ridiculous.

I recently leaked doj memo says differently.
http://static.infowars.com/2013/02/i...olicy-memo.pdf

Even states that allow FTF transfers, the vast vast majority of guns are purchased a dealers.

They could prosecute the persons that committed the illegal straw purchase, but that is not a priority according to Biden. He would rather us have more laws that are not enforced that only the law abiding follow. Gun controls isn't about guns, it's about control.

[MrWillys]

Originally Posted by shooting4life

I recently leaked doj memo says differently.
http://static.infowars.com/2013/02/i...olicy-memo.pdf

Even states that allow FTF transfers, the vast vast majority of guns are purchased a dealers.

They could prosecute the persons that committed the illegal straw purchase, but that is not a priority according to Biden. He would rather us have more laws that are not enforced that only the law abiding follow. Gun controls isn't about guns, it's about control.

This documents what you post as accurate. I do have reservations due to the site linked being a known biased source.

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...arms/chap3.pdf

If you combine all unlicensed sales it exceeds stolen. Also note that stolen includes robbing FFL dealers. I'm sorry, but when I hear the stolen argument I think of them being stolen from an individuals residence.
Bottom line: As a nation we look the other way, and allow these sales too occur, and hold no one responsible. That said, it wouldn't have stopped Sandy Hook. IMHO, that is an example along with others that we need to do a better job of educating about mental health. I disagree with you about control. As someone who shoots I just think we can explore other ideas. I'm not about taking guns, but holding people responsible for knowingly placing the in the wrong hands.

[cphil19]

The fact of the matter is guns are sold LEGALLY in the US and those same guns end up in the hands of criminals through one way or another.

This idea that they're all being "smuggled in and sold on the black market" is a myth in itself, when the truth is most entered circulation legally and were sold in our own backyard.

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by MrWillys

This documents what you post as accurate. I do have reservations due to the site linked being a known biased source.

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...arms/chap3.pdf

If you combine all unlicensed sales it exceeds stolen. Also note that stolen includes robbing FFL dealers. I'm sorry, but when I hear the stolen argument I think of them being stolen from an individuals residence.
Bottom line: As a nation we look the other way, and allow these sales too occur, and hold no one responsible. That said, it wouldn't have stopped Sandy Hook. IMHO, that is an example along with others that we need to do a better job of educating about mental health. I disagree with you about control. As someone who shoots I just think we can explore other ideas. I'm not about taking guns, but holding people responsible for knowingly placing the in the wrong hands.

What don't you actually read the document instead of getting worked up about the website that wrote a story about the memo. I didn't post the article from the website, just the source document from which the article is based on. If you took the time to actually click the link and read instead of letting your biases cloud your ability to have a real discussion you would have known that.

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by cphil19

The fact of the matter is guns are sold LEGALLY in the US and those same guns end up in the hands of criminals through one way or another.

This idea that they're all being "smuggled in and sold on the black market" is a myth in itself, when the truth is most entered circulation legally and were sold in our own backyard.

If guns were completely illegal to sell I the US do you think criminal would not be able to get them? Will the government be able to stop the illegal importation of guns when they cannot stop the importation of drugs, human trafficking, animal trafficking to just name a few things that are easier to discover yet the government cannot seem to stop them?

[dexter14]

Originally Posted by FloridaPirate355

I'm a gun enthusiast who is moving to California, and having talked to severalCCalifornians about this subject, they assure me that the state laws are a bunch of hot air and there are easy ways around them.

Whoever told you that is an idiot. Just bringing a 30 round magazine and AR or AK without a bullet button on it across the state line will get you arrested and your guns confiscated if you are caught. I suggest you visit Calguns.net - Powered by vBulletin and ask questions before you move here. Or better yet, don't move here at all if you value your right to own firearms.

[e30is]

Originally Posted by shooting4life

I recently leaked doj memo says differently.
http://static.infowars.com/2013/02/i...olicy-memo.pdf

Even states that allow FTF transfers, the vast vast majority of guns are purchased a dealers.

They could prosecute the persons that committed the illegal straw purchase, but that is not a priority according to Biden. He would rather us have more laws that are not enforced that only the law abiding follow. Gun controls isn't about guns, it's about control.

Him and the federal government do not consider this their top priority. Further enforcement of the law should continue but it has weakened under the current administration's control. The funding of background checks comes to mind.

[snatale1]

Originally Posted by bigdumbgod

What are you waiting for? You got the gun, you got the anger, you got the motive. Find those heathens and start blasting away! Yeehaw!

Ah! Your apparently a liberal. Everybody else knows that legal LAW ABIDING citizens don't handle things that way. I feel sorry for you. It must be hard going through life with blinders on. My guns are only a danger to pieces of paper, and people actively threatening my life.