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Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,138,681 times
Reputation: 3145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veyron
I've been in Houston for a year and a half and I never experienced racism.
I've always been fairly compensated. I was never refused or steered away from the nicer apartments. I had no problem finiding jobs, no police harrasment and I never was refused service.
I have met some pretty prejudice ignorant people here but they weren't racist. The prejudice here is defiantly overt which is good because I can be awaee and avoid those people for social interactions.
Houston is one of the most integrated cities in the nation the complete opposite of san fran.
There may be racism in Houston but I can't say if I ever experienced it personally.
People here care more about $$$ then skin color. If your a good worker they will give you raises or compensate you pretty good. Theres no rental discrimination etc etc
I'm having difficulty understanding "prejudiced, ignorant people who aren't racists" in this context. Also, the color lines on your map look pretty neatly drawn to me, except for the one section on the southwest side. That's segregation. Please compare that to a similar map of the Bay Area, not just SF (as clarified above).
I'm having difficulty understanding "prejudiced, ignorant people who aren't racists" in this context. Also, the color lines on your map look pretty neatly drawn to me, except for the one section on the southwest side. That's segregation. Please compare that to a similar map of the Bay Area, not just SF (as clarified above).
Prejudice
an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding an ethnic, racial, social, or religious group.
Racism
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
To me, being prejudice is having negative feelings towards an individual based on racial, ethnic, religon etc.
Being racist is the act of discriminating against someone because of their racial, ethnic and religous background. Ex
One of my former bosses could be prejudiced to me because of my skin color but the fact that I was still hired and paid a good salary because I make him good money does not make him racist.
People in Houston stereotype like crazy and they are very prejudiced but no one here really acts on their prejudices.
Unlike the northeast which has a ton of covert racism. They hide their prejudice attitudes behind fake smiles, but they act it out by hiring blacks last.
You also have to understand I may be a little bias because of my positive personal experiences in Houston. I made alot of non black friends down there so my judgement is skewed.
You could be right that Houston isn't racist but I can't agree with you because again I lived by Jersey village. All the friends I made where non- black. I go to a nightclub, there playing hip hop music and you see every race in there dancing there butts off. It was an actual culture shock to me being down here coming from the Northeast.
Maybe I didn't explore Houston enough. The blacks there seemed to be doing well for themselves.
Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. I do get that our experiences are different.
I will not disagree that it is tougher for blacks to do well in SF, but you must understand that the the comparison between SF and Houston is inherently flawed. To illustrate this, ask yourself how blacks in Houston are doing in Downtown, Montrose, Heights, West University, Bellaire, River Oaks, Tanglewood, Uptown and Timbergrove?
That's about the same area of the entire City of San Francisco relative to the Bay Area as a whole. It is wealthy, predominantly white, and is the center of shopping, employment, and retail in all of Houston. It also enjoys the highest real estate values in the region. The main difference is, this area is not arbitrarily defined as its own city. If it were, it would definitely be a place that "would raise red flags to you". It has been highly gentrified with neighborhoods like Third and Sixth Wards and The Heights being basically bulldozed for incoming white urbanites. Blacks have been pushed farther to the east, north and southeast sides and it is not terribly welcoming to blacks. Yet, it is an integral part of the core of Houston-- a place where you admit you "have no problems". Without it, Houston wouldn't register on anyone's radar. But that perimeter part of Houston is what makes it one of the most diverse cities in the country!
The same is true of the Bay Area, except that there are viable, vibrant cities outside of the elite, predominantly white (and in the Bay's case, also Asian) area we call San Francisco. Furthermore, in the Bay Area's case, employment, and social interaction between whites and blacks seems to happen much more naturally and organically than it ever did in Houston. That's the California attitude at work. It's much more liberal and inclusive than I observed in Texas.
I'll concede it may be my imagination, but blacks in the Bay Area seem to be afforded much greater opportunities for upward mobility and they appear to have greater access to wealth than they did in Houston. Conversely, black ghettos seem tougher and poorer, with fewer opportunities to escape. There does appear to be a kind of (I believe) unintended "racism of liberalism" in California that, through programs for the poor, actually promotes poverty by making it sustainable. Thus, the poor get caught in the system and segregation becomes institutionalized. This was not the case in Texas. The poor are largely forgotten there.
I think people were taking for granted that you understood that a better comparison is Houston to Bay Area, rather than Houston to SF. That explains the answers you received.
I hope that clarifies my earlier statements a bit better. Apologies again for jumping to conclusions earlier.
Okay based on the information (in this post and others) you and others have given me (which i appreciate) I think I have an understanding of what I need to do.
I need to move to SF with all my ducks in order. It's a very elitist, expensive, white collar type of city so I need to be on my A game.
I need to move to San Fran as a Mechanical engineer (bachelors) and pursue higher level education.
As long as I have the education and I'm already established I will have more opportunities then I did in Houston. It will be awhile until I move out there.
In the meantime Ill start visiting it alot get used to the area and try to build a strong network of friends, peers, acquaintances so at least that way It won't feel like walking into a whole new world.
San fran is kind of far its 30 hrs away from here so I will only be able to visit a few times a year (few weeks at a time).
Ill try going to meetups, events, meet and greets etc.
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,138,681 times
Reputation: 3145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veyron
Okay based on the information (in this post and others) you and others have given me (which i appreciate) I think I have an understanding of what I need to do.
I need to move to SF with all my ducks in order. It's a very elitist, expensive, white collar type of city so I need to be on my A game.
I need to move to San Fran as a Mechanical engineer (bachelors) and pursue higher level education.
As long as I have the education and I'm already established I will have more opportunities then I did in Houston. It will be awhile until I move out there.
In the meantime Ill start visiting it alot get used to the area and try to build a strong network of friends, peers, acquaintances so at least that way It won't feel like walking into a whole new world.
San fran is kind of far its 30 hrs away from here so I will only be able to visit a few times a year (few weeks at a time).
Ill try going to meetups, events, meet and greets etc.
The Bay Area values education more than Houston does...perhaps a little too much, in my opinion. There's especially a value placed on "brand name" education. That means you may see some of that covert racism creeping back in in this equation, as the schools that mean a lot to the Bay Area are not necessarily known for being highly accessible to black students. I honestly believe this to be symptomatic of a larger, national, cultural problem, rather than a local, institutional racism one, though, if that makes sense.
If Houston fulfills your needs and career goals, there's really no reason to leave. It's a nice enough place to live. I lived there for more than 20 years. The level of segregation was noticeable, though. You noted a pretty high degree of racial ignorance, prejudice and "fake smiles" after less than two years there. I'd caution you against thinking that won't ultimately hold you back in Houston, though. If it's there, it will influence your career eventually.
Fact is, it's everywhere--even the Bay Area. I believe it is present here to a much lesser degree, though. At least that has been my observation.
When I first moved here, I lived in a house share in the East Bay. The home was a family estate owned by a divorced absentee Asian businessman. His friend, a black Cal-educated attorney was the main lessee of the house and essentially its "manager". We had a few other housemates.
The attorney and I became good friends. He is involved primarily in racial discrimination cases (often donates his services, advocates for change, and represents employees against their employers). He offered me quite a few insights and perspectives on California race relations. He was shocked (but not surprised) at some of the things I noticed (even as a white person) going on in Texas, that simply wouldn't fly in California. Or, at least, there was more of a general cultural leaning against the practices here than there was in Texas.
It's not Utopia here in the Bay Area in terms of racial equality. And yes, if you isolate San Francisco, it is not a very black city. But the general attitude here is not nearly as prejudiced against blacks as I observed in Houston. The attainment of wealth among blacks, particularly in the East Bay is also much greater in general than I ever noticed in Houston. I attribute some of this to California's much greater access to superior higher education at the public level.
That said, there's more racial tension here in the Bay Area than there was in Houston. I attribute that to more change happening--a good thing. Change often brings friction. More paths crossing creates flashpoints. The result seems to be heightened awareness of the issues. Reference the Black Panther movement in Berkeley for context.
The "fake smiles" are not evident here. Whispers and slurs don't seem as commonplace here. As a professional, I interact with many more races on a peer level here than I did in Houston or Dallas. I realize this is all anecdotal and therefor largely meaningless, but it is my observation.
This is all worth exactly what you paid for it. I'm just trying to give you my perspective on the landscape. I love Houston and still have ties there. Frankly, it's a much better place to be an Auto technician or even an electrical engineer from everything I can tell, based upon career opportunities, cost of living, ease of raising a family, etc. And yes, Houston is very good by Texas standards for a black person to get ahead. I personally believe the Bay Area is overall much better, though it may not be in your individual situation.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
Last edited by dalparadise; 01-03-2015 at 11:35 AM..
The Bay Area values education more than Houston does...perhaps a little too much, in my opinion. There's especially a value placed on "brand name" education. That means you may see some of that covert racism creeping back in in this equation, as the schools that mean a lot to the Bay Area are not necessarily known for being highly accessible to black students. I honestly believe this to be symptomatic of a larger, national, cultural problem, rather than a local, institutional racism one, though, if that makes sense.
If Houston fulfills your needs and career goals, there's really no reason to leave. It's a nice enough place to live. I lived there for more than 20 years. The level of segregation was noticeable, though. You noted a pretty high degree of racial ignorance, prejudice and "fake smiles" after less than two years there. I'd caution you against thinking that won't ultimately hold you back in Houston, though. If it's there, it will influence your career eventually.
Fact is, it's everywhere--even the Bay Area. I believe it is present here to a much lesser degree, though. At least that has been my observation.
When I first moved here, I lived in a house share in the East Bay. The home was a family estate owned by a divorced absentee Asian businessman. His friend, a black Cal-educated attorney was the main lessee of the house and essentially its "manager". We had a few other housemates.
The attorney and I became good friends. He is involved primarily in racial discrimination cases (often donates his services, advocates for change, and represents employees against their employers). He offered me quite a few insights and perspectives on California race relations. He was shocked (but not surprised) at some of the things I noticed (even as a white person) going on in Texas, that simply wouldn't fly in California. Or, at least, there was more of a general cultural leaning against the practices here than there was in Texas.
It's not Utopia here in the Bay Area in terms of racial equality. And yes, if you isolate San Francisco, it is not a very black city. But the general attitude here is not nearly as prejudiced against blacks as I observed in Houston. The attainment of wealth among blacks, particularly in the East Bay is also much greater in general than I ever noticed in Houston. I attribute some of this to California's much greater access to superior higher education at the public level.
That said, there's more racial tension here in the Bay Area than there was in Houston. I attribute that to more change happening--a good thing. Change often brings friction. More paths crossing creates flashpoints. The result seems to be heightened awareness of the issues. Reference the Black Panther movement in Berkeley for context.
The "fake smiles" are not evident here. Whispers and slurs don't seem as commonplace here. As a professional, I interact with many more races on a peer level here than I did in Houston or Dallas. I realize this is all anecdotal and therefor largely meaningless, but it is my observation.
This is all worth exactly what you paid for it. I'm just trying to give you my perspective on the landscape. I love Houston and still have ties there. Frankly, it's a much better place to be an Auto technician or even an electrical engineer from everything I can tell, based upon career opportunities, cost of living, ease of raising a family, etc. And yes, Houston is very good by Texas standards for a black person to get ahead. I personally believe the Bay Area is overall much better, though it may not be in your individual situation.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
Thanks for the valuable information.
I won't know for sure what i'm going to do until I start visiting the area. I'll spend a week or 2 down there, getting a feel for the city. It's the only way to know if I should make the move.
I think it all depends on how the city "feels."
You brought up some interesting points about educational standards In San fran which I may have a problem with. I'm going to a Community college for engineering, transferring to a University.
I guess you need some crazy degree from an Ivy league school in order to do good out there.
I like Houston alot and the prejudice attitudes haven't influenced my life al yet but it could happen.
I'm really interest in san Fran and you have convinced me to at least check it out. You also made me aware of some of the obstacles I will encounter.
I won't be there until July of this year. I think 10 days is enough to get an impression of the city.
I only have a few friends out there so I'll try to make more.
Wrost case scenario it doesn't work out and it was a good traveling experience.
I do admit I had closed myself off to what he was saying at one point, because it did seem like he was jockeying for an intended outcome. Subsequent posts have made me think otherwise and his question now seems more sincere.
OP-please accept this as my honest statement that I do not dismiss your concerns at all and am only responding in an attempt to answer them from whatever perspective I can offer.
I wasn't directing that at you necessarily, the post about his friend prompted that reply from me. You seem like a reasonable person at this point and after reading your posts, I have also learned a few things.
He's a good guy/good friend but your right, talking to him about racism is like talking to a brick wall.
I try my best to avoid discussions about race when talking to him.
I know what you mean. Most of my friends have always been white so I am very familiar with what you're saying. I don't blame them because why would they know? Latinos have a different perspective and reaction to racism than Blacks. Oddly, I found the people who seem most like Blacks when dealing with racism are Asians.
Anyway, I do agree with dalparadise that SF is likely no where near Houston when it comes to racism and I have heard the same thing from people I know who've moved there.
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,138,681 times
Reputation: 3145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo
I wasn't directing that at you necessarily, the post about his friend prompted that reply from me. You seem like a reasonable person at this point and after reading your posts, I have also learned a few things.
Thanks. Nice of you to say that.
I mainly addressed it that way because I did make the "race baiting" comment, as that was what I perceived to be going on. The OP even copped to a bit of it. Anyway--all good.
This is covertracism. Hence the word covert.
Black = Poor Poor = Black in San Francisco and the poor are segregated from the rest. If it were out in the open then it wouldn't be covert.
Hence the problem - not only in San Francisco or Texas but everywhere. "Black = uneducated/poor" is the automatic assumption people make instantaneously EVERYWHERE. And that everywhere includes New York, Boston, Philly, DC, the South, the Midwest, the Northern Plains, other COUNTRIES, Canada, etc. And apparently don't get me started on Central and South America where "darker skin = uneducated = poor/unemployable/marginalized"...
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