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What you are seeing, is flood irrigation of row crops. Drip irrigation does not work for that type of crops. The alternative would be overhead sprinklers, and they can use a lot more water than flood irrigation
Then they need to stop. Just stop. Find something else to grow.
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Originally Posted by oldtrader
The soil is very sandy, and some water will always work it's way to low spots around the field as you show in your pictures. This is the norm, not unusual.
Even to the point that pipes are installed to catch and redirect this 'incidental' runoff into the dirt as opposed to a catch sump where it could be reused?
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Originally Posted by oldtrader
California is by far the #1 biggest milk producer in the country. If they are going to be able to feed the animals at dairy farms, they have to have feed available to feed to them. It takes water to grow the feed to feed those cows. It is not being wasted, but a necessary part of farming.
Chino and Ontario used to be large farming communities. Now the dairies are all gone, replaced by housing. Maybe it's time for the dairies to move on again. Again, to a place that has the necessary resources (read: water and open land) to conduct their operations.
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Originally Posted by oldtrader
Second thing to consider. You say city dwellers are not allowed to use much water, and you regret that the farmers are. Fact: Farmers are cutting way back on their operations, due to being limited to the amount of water they use. Fact: The farmers were the ones that developed the water systems, and by law they mostly have water rights senior to the cities water rights.
If one group farmers or cities have to do without water, due to water rights in order of establishing them, the farmers come first. Just because so many people have moved to the California cities, does not mean they should get all the water, and to heck with the farmers. Without farming in California your food bill would go through the roof, and there would be food supply problems as the biggest producers of certain crops in the nation are right there in California.
Actually the first steps at taking the archaic seniority system, crumping it into a ball, attaching it to a rocket, and sending it hurtling into the sun have been taken. And I support it wholeheartedly.
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Originally Posted by oldtrader
It is easier for cities with newer and less powerful water rights to cut back on water than it is for farmers. Many farmers with newer water rights like the cities have, have changed the crops they grow to use less water. However the need for corn to feed dairy cows, is still needed and will be needed in the future. When the federal government required that ethanol additives to gasoline had to be done, they greatly reduced the amount of corn around the nation that could be used for animal feed or for human consumption and the price of food jumped. I saw today sale price for corn at the local market, is 80 cents an ear. A far cry from the penny per year we were paying for ears of corn in the 50s when it was 1 cent per ear, in a 100 ear sack. My wife would buy a sack and freeze and can it as did her friends (all living in the city).
Ask me how much sympathy I have for them when I can buy a bushel of grapes or a flat of berries for less about a third the price of ones that were grown and trucked in from 1500 miles away than I can for ones that were grown two miles away.
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Originally Posted by oldtrader
City dwellers in California are getting angry when they see farmers using water required to grow food, and to feed animals, when they are told to cut back on water. The farmers are cutting back as much as possible, but are still going to use a lot of water.
They need to cut back some more. Then the state should pay for new landscaping. Not another 'rebate' scam where the homeowner still has to front the money and then see the claim denied on a technicality, but done and paid for free and clear, no questions asked. Everything I put in was completely fair and legal at the time. And now laws are being changed without my consent. Yet the farmers are being exempted from it. They are already getting more than their share of free passes. So if I have to take a hair cut, THEY need to take a hair cut.
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Originally Posted by oldtrader
Farmers largely own the old water rights, and most cities have newer water rights. Old has higher water rights, over the cites with newer water rights. To make sufficient water in the cities, city people should do away with lawns and many water thirsty plants. Just as it is done in Tuscon Arizona. Why should city people with junior water rights have lawns and many plants, if it forces farmers to go out of business due to the lack of water? Why should city people have lawns and lots of plants, forcing dairy farmers to cut way back on their herds as they cannot get the feed to feed the animals as the cities are getting water and the farmer is being cut off so the dairy cannot buy food for their animals at a price that makes selling milk possible? Why should the cities not cut back on residents that have flooded into them, and force people to leave so there will be enough water to supply the residents?
Like I said. The writing is on the wall. That "we were here first" mentality is probably not long for this world. I've seen where many of these farmers live and how they conduct some of their operations. They aren't hurting. The real reason they are crying the blues boils down to nothing more than stubborn recalcitrance to change. Many of them have been doing things the same way for decades if not generations. So conforming to a new set of realities is seen by them as a threat, regardless of whether or not it can be more practical, feasible, or sustainable. Indeed it is that abject trepidation which makes them squirm that is a sense of entertainment in its own right. Everyone else is expected to live in an 'adapt or die' life. And they should not be excepted.
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Originally Posted by oldtrader
The OP is only thinking on how to keep his lawn and plants looking good, and would take the water away from the farmers to make it possible.
Yup. Although you are not without your valid points, the fact is that CA residents are getting "hosed" any way you look at it. Just like we were in 2000 with the artificially engineered electricity 'crisis'. This drought is no different. Follow the money. It reeks to high heaven of cronyism and shady back room deals. If we are "all in this together", then "all of us" should share some of the sacrifices. And I'm not seeing that.
Not a green lawn to be seen where I live... really has taken it's toll.
But I'm sure they are being bombarded with door hangers offering to re-landscape their lawns. At what? Anywhere from two to twenty grand a pop? No thanks. I reject that on principle alone a-la paying "protection money". Like I said in my last post. The State should be subsidizing that 100%, no questions asked, not a dime out of the homeowners pocket. Up to a certain reasonable amount at least if they are going to be shoving this down our throats. Rebate programs are such a scam. No sane person should ever fall for that bait.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
A lot of seniors live around here and for many... their gardens were the source of enjoyment.
But I'm sure plenty of farmers would happily sell them the same produce. C'mon. No one likes a private garden. Spread some money around. Be a team player.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
As to conservation... the water company has said EBMD has exceeded reduction goals and revenues are taking a greater than expected hit...
Today...."______(insert boilerplate adjective of choice) than previously thought" = euphemism for "we don't know what we're talking about and just making it up as we go along. We'll get the story out first and issue retractions and corrections later."
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
As to farmers... there isn't a valley farmer that has not taken steps to conserve... all depends on the crop or the choice to plant or not...
They did? Fooled the hell out of me. And I live in the Central Valley. I still see water-thirsty plants all over the place like it's nobodies business. And please refer back to my original pictures.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
No crop for market means no income to pay the bills... it's a way of life that is in jeopardy...
Sucks to be them I guess. Find a new crop, a new way of life, or a new occupation. Same paradigm applies to everyone else. Tell me again why these people are so special? And I'll for a third time extend an invitation to go sightseeing. I'll be happy to show you where some of these "poor" farmers live. If you can even see the house behind the hundred acres of almond trees.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Could be the only farmer's I know are family operations... can't speak to the mega business outfits.
Tell me again why these people are so special? And I'll for a third time extend an invitation to go sightseeing. I'll be happy to show you where some of these "poor" farmers live. If you can even see the house behind the hundred acres of almond trees.
Um, because they got the water deal first and there's this thing in democratic civilizations called the rule of law.
And I been reading your diatribes. Why don't you tell us why farmers should be poor to gain your respect? So what if they live in mansions? What exactly do you think they owe anybody?
Now, I'm not a fan of profligate farming. Don't like the mass transition to almonds at the expense of other crops and the limited water supplies. Nope sir, not one bit. But your attitude is intriguing. Think these farmers owe you or anybody the time of day? Think again. Try changing the system from the inside. Ground up. Expecting them to voluntarily give up their mini-dynasties is like - well, like praying for rain.
It's not that I have anyone against living in posh and lavish mansions.
-Only people that do while carping about how poor they are. I can take you by some other places within the same county. Sometimes on the same street....and show you what poverty REALLY is.
I'm glad you posted the photos. And BTW, now we know you're white LOL. I also thought it was cool that you keep your phone on military time.
Anyway, I think it's good for people around the country and the world who have bought into the media hype that we're all crawling on our bellies with nothing but dry gulches across the entire state - to see photos that show we do actually have water here. Especially when they read the stories about how ALL the farmers in CA can't grow crops because there is no water.
It's not that I have anyone against living in posh and lavish mansions.
-Only people that do while carping about how poor they are. I can take you by some other places within the same county. Sometimes on the same street....and show you what poverty REALLY is.
Examples? I haven't noticed farmers crying poverty. I've heard them say their livelihoods are threatened and they could go under if they can't keep their operations going. Which is true.
If you don't like farmers... show it by not buying their products...
A person could always grow their own and barter with friends and neighbors doing the same... not reason to give a penny to agribusiness.
Mom does well bartering her Mission Figs... even the local produce market calls her to see when the next flat will come in.
I really don't understand what it is that riles some up when the word farmer comes up... one side of my family has for generations operated a small dairy farm organically way before the term was even coined... they are honest, hard working people as in 7 days a week as anyone with a clue knows there is never a day off in the dairy farming...
If someone wants what's yours... they should buy it.
If you don't like farmers... show it by not buying their products...
A person could always grow their own and barter with friends and neighbors doing the same... not reason to give a penny to agribusiness.
Mom does well bartering her Mission Figs... even the local produce market calls her to see when the next flat will come in.
I really don't understand what it is that riles some up when the word farmer comes up... one side of my family has for generations operated a small dairy farm organically way before the term was even coined... they are honest, hard working people as in 7 days a week as anyone with a clue knows there is never a day off in the dairy farming...
If someone wants what's yours... they should buy it.
I see your point. But as far as boycotting CA agribusiness/farmers, that could be effective if they weren't exporting most of their crops.
But even if all Californians stop buying California almonds and rice, we won't be hurting their pocketbooks at all. And this is where the animosity comes into play, at least as far as the drought is concerned, in my opinion.
I just don't think it is fair to single out farmers as the bad guys...
Almost all water used in agriculture is not drink water quality and it takes years of work before any income is realized from most tree crops.
Sacramento has been saying for California to be strong... we need to export... seems California farmers have excelled in creating new markets... domestic and overseas.
Unless the major league ball teams are using artifical turf... a tremendous amount of water is used just so the fields look pretty... and for what... so multimillionaires can keep getting paid?
I see a plenty of areas where water can be saved and repurposed... it is just very slow in coming...
My wash water is diverted to my fruit trees and for years this was 100% illegal...
Building Air Conditioning systems produce a steady stream of condensate and local regs prohibit any reuse of this water... it must flow to the sanitary sewer system.
A lot of medical equipment requires steam sterilization... the more people needing treatment, the more water needed to make the steam to sterilize instruments... and new regs require longer chamber time... so more water used.
Water infrastructure is often questionable... pipe breaks happen all the time... had a big one in where the street was a river... it took media coverage to get the water company mobilized because it happened on a weekend and calling in the crew would cost overtime... again, the water loss seemed of no consequence... it was the fear of bad press that made repairs happen in a timely manner.
In my city... community gardens were pushed very heavily... as a means of bringing neighbors together and the benefits of organic growing... most have now folded because city farming paying municipal water rates is a no go from the start.
Many I know are really starting to be disgusted with the local water company... If not a single drop of water flows through my pipe... it still costs almost $130 every 60 days because the pipe is there and available.
My home household water usage averages 32 gallons per person per day including pets... yet I catch grief for cleaning my car once a month... I wonder what their average gallons per day usage is?
Next door neighbor and I spoke today... we figure if we can get by with a little less water per day... one of us can have our water service turned off and run a RV hose between houses and split the bill... almost an $800 savings right there.
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