Do You Support Calexit Knowing that It's Sponsored by Russia? (how much, authority)

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by StanleysOwl

Was there anything inthat article about Calexit? Your passionate hatred for Putin and Russia is palpable. And perhaps somewhat reasonable. What is not apparent, still, is any coherent connection to that hatred and Californian independence. As pointed out timeand again, Russian support for the issue does not prove any dangerous relationship exists. If Putin likes chocolate cake, does that make chocolate cake bad for us in California? You continue to avoid answering this question. And continue to avoid making any coherent case for how Russian support would translate to Russian control and advantage.

These posts of yours belong in Politics forums.

I think we'd do better having closer relationships with countries like Germany, France, Canada and eventually, even the USA again but if we are closer to Russia, that may not happen. All of those other countries would make better allies and trading partners. Russia is kind of alone in the world. I cannot help but think that having an ally in a former US state has some sort of strategic advantage for them. I don't trust their motives.

[StanleysOwl]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

I think we'd do better having closer relationships with countries like Germany, France, Canada and eventually, even the USA again but if we are closer to Russia, that may not happen. All of those other countries would make better allies and trading partners. Russia is kind of alone in the world. I cannot help but think that having an ally in a former US state has some sort of strategic advantage for them. I don't trust their motives.

Sure, regarding alliances. And sure, no good reason to trust anything Russian. Those aren't the point. The question is, why does Russian interest necessarily translate to any Russian control or advantage? Who is / will be in charge of any independent transition? Russians wanting doesn't translate to them getting what they seek. Unless we give it to them. Why would anyone do that here? As opposed to structuring relationships within a commonwealth democracy, for example, created favorably with like-minded existing, secure relationships.

Putin in these threads is being treated by the OP as if he is a Freddy Kruger bogeyman. So what if he is? Who is afraid of the bogeyman? Why is it to be presumed he is any stronger than we are that we can't shrug him off as we do now?

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by StanleysOwl

Sure, regarding alliances. And sure, no good reason to trust anything Russian. Those aren't the point. The question is, why does Russian interest necessarily translate to any Russian control or advantage? Who is / will be in charge of any independent transition? Russians wanting doesn't translate to them getting what they seek. Unless we give it to them. Why would anyone do that here? As opposed to structuring relationships within a commonwealth democracy, for example, created favorably with like-minded existing, secure relationships.

Putin in these threads is being treated by the OP as if he is a Freddy Kruger bogeyman. So what if he is? Who is afraid of the bogeyman? Why is it to be presumed he is any stronger than we are that we can't shrug him off as we do now?

For me, that's reason enough.

However, to your question; Russia is not known for doing anything out of the goodness of their hearts. If they're doing something, they want something in return, that was part of my point.

[StanleysOwl]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

For me, that's reason enough.

However, to your question; Russia is not known for doing anything out of the goodness of their hearts. If they're doing something, they want something in return, that was part of my point.

Again, you state the obvious. So obvious that I wonder why the OP is obsessively concerned. Of course the Russians don't support California independence out of the goodness of their hearts. Again, how does that reality translate to them getting what they want in their nefarious ulterior motives? Unless we give it to them? And why would we be fooled or tempted?

None of their nefariousness means California independence is foolish, or dangerous to us or the United States. Unless, of course, the fearful are highly insecure individuals and have no confidence in their own strength.

[TheseGoTo11]

Originally Posted by StanleysOwl

Of course the Russians don't support California independence out of the goodness of their hearts.

They support because Putin is upset about the USSR breaking up, and wants to do the same to us. This is why he sponsored a secession conference for both Texit and Calexit prior to the election. Had Hillary won, he would have pushed Texit.

But given that this thing is now being mocked on so many fronts, I'd say his propaganda campaign isn't going so well.

Texas, California Separatists Attend Kremlin-Funded Conference - ABC News

[StanleysOwl]

Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11

They support because Putin is upset about the USSR breaking up, and wants to do the same to us. This is why he sponsored a secession conference for both Texit and Calexit prior to the election. Had Hillary won, he would have pushed Texit.

But given that this thing is now being mocked on so many fronts, I'd say his propaganda campaign isn't going so well.

Texas, California Separatists Attend Kremlin-Funded Conference - ABC News

And the question remains unanswered from you: who cares? Why are you so afraid of Putin? Do you feel he is an irresistable wizard? Do you assume that because he wants the US to break up the outcome will be in his favor? If Putin likes chocolate cake does that mean it is poison for everyone?

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by StanleysOwl

Again, you state the obvious. So obvious that I wonder why the OP is obsessively concerned. Of course the Russians don't support California independence out of the goodness of their hearts. Again, how does that reality translate to them getting what they want in their nefarious ulterior motives? Unless we give it to them? And why would we be fooled or tempted?

None of their nefariousness means California independence is foolish, or dangerous to us or the United States. Unless, of course, the fearful are highly insecure individuals and have no confidence in their own strength.

Yeah I guess, after all, Russia has never used their military to impose their will on other countries.

[TheGoodUsernamesWereTaken]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Yeah I guess, after all, Russia has never used their military to impose their will on other countries.

The USA has done worse, what's your point?



It keeps getting repeated for a reason, because if you accept it, the argument is over: If Putin likes chocolate, does that make chocolate bad?

[StanleysOwl]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Yeah I guess, after all, Russia has never used their military to impose their will on other countries.

Not getting why that's any danger more than them invading us now? We're not continental to them. We are across a huge ocean. Why would California not negotiate a defense pact with the US as the US has with NATO, and Pacific countries? Etc.

Again, the realistic opportunity for California independence doesn't lie with any secession. It lies with a cooperative restructuring of all United States into more autonomous regions that share trade and defense and democratic ideals - but differ in approaches to economic characteristics, regulation and oversight, and other more local identity issues.

As pointed out, nearly all the present nations of the world have acheived independence from other rule, and done so mostly peacefully through advocacy, protest, negotiations, voting. All have structured relationships for security and trade and more. No new nation has ever broken free with the kind of assets and power that California brings to the table. The nation will never let go of such a cash cow / golden egg laying goose unless as part of a remarkable national restructuring for the benefit of all regions.

Quebec, Catalonia, Scotland are all recent examples of serious attempts to establish new nations from regions with good resources. But none compare even remotely to the power California holds to create win/win negotiations.

[Curmudgeon]

And the sky is falling. The sky is falling!