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I can't speak for NYC but Toronto and Vancouver's housing market is out of control & the biggest culprit is all those foreign millionaires buying up stuff.
I can't speak for NYC but Toronto and Vancouver's housing market is out of control & the biggest culprit is all those foreign millionaires buying up stuff.
NYC, Miami, and San Fran and LA are facing the same problem, though thats just one of the problems, not the problem. One luxury skyscraper in NYC for instance is completely leased, but is only around 19% occupied at a given time. That helps property value, but doesn't help locals who need afforable NY housing payed for with NY incomes.
Charleston is facing a similar issue, but with northerners not foreigners, though we are getting some international looks.
Well, Mt. P has had about a 10x growth in population since 1970. You can't say that about Florida as a whole, which during that time period has grown 3x, or Berkeley County which has grown 4x.
idk about Greer, Powdersville, etc., but Bluffton is certainly comparable to some extent. It has grown 25x since 1970.
Yes but some parts of the country are depopulating, and many others are stagnating in terms of population. And those areas that are growing aren't necessarily seeing an influx of wealthy people, some of them are seeing immigrants (legal or illegal). As such I don't think rolling all of this into one big category is meaningful.
These growth rates aren't completely comparable considering we're comparing places with population in the thousands versus the millions. Florida has a pop of 2 million in 1940 vs Mt P which was 1,600, so of course Florida's rate will look slower, but I was just making a general comparison. Both places, and Arizona, are relatively "new."
And I'm sorry, but I don't really get where you're going with the last paragraph. You were talking about general growth changing places over time, so I don't know why this "depopulation" or this illegal immigrant stuff matters. I was just speaking on raw numbers.
Florida has grown, Arizona has grown, Mount Pleasant has grown. Their faces have changed, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. That's my point.
And I'm sorry, but I don't really get where you're going with the last paragraph. You were talking about general growth changing places over time, so I don't know why this "depopulation" or this illegal immigrant stuff matters. I was just speaking on raw numbers.
I interpret this as the poster pointing out that growth alone does not explain the growing disconnect between local salaries and home costs. It is entirely possible to be in a boom town where housing costs increase but increase in proportion to salaries or increased employment. At the moment all of downtown, much of Mt Pleasant and some of West Ashley, James Island and the like are seeing housing costs which are in no way relative to local income.
If you look at Florida it has added tons of housing but it has not universally grown beyond local wages providing a path to local housing. Myrtle Beach/Horry County has alsso seen major growth without the relationship between wages and housing being so skewed.
I interpret this as the poster pointing out that growth alone does not explain the growing disconnect between local salaries and home costs. It is entirely possible to be in a boom town where housing costs increase but increase in proportion to salaries or increased employment. At the moment all of downtown, much of Mt Pleasant and some of West Ashley, James Island and the like are seeing housing costs which are in no way relative to local income.
Spoiler tags because my post is a little long.
Spoiler
I'm sorry. I thought leroi was talking about how cultures have changed because of growth, not salaries and home costs. My bad.
But no I agree. This is a big problem for the area. Our COL is too high and does not match our wages. Our COL is higher than Atlanta and Charlotte. There's many factors: limited land, newfound desirability, growing economy, lack of options, zoning restrictions, proximity to water. And another part of it is the northern wealth.
All the million dollar homes you see downtown and in Mt P, few people in SC can actually afford that nor are willing to pay that price for a house, but people from up north keep coming down with that money already in place and keep agreeing to these prices, and it keeps the demand up as well as prices.
That is not a knock on northerners, I'm glad everyone is wanting to experience the Charleston pie. That is just my observations in general and from what I see at the real estate office I intern at. They are a huge customer base.
Lack of options is another issue. For instance student housing downtown is pretty limited. Other than 930Nomo, Campus Center, the dorms, and Courtyards, there isn't much for students to choose from who don't want to live in a shack from 1910. Students are paying average $900+ a month. Even on JI. Up in Clemson you can rent a place with much more room for $300's. We need more units. We can't keep sprawling out. Fighting projects like Sarg Jasper, the apartments on JI, and 526 isn't helping and will do less for our QOL than having them. We already see how Johns Is is booming (too fast) with no 526. It was bound to happen and it shouldve been obvious. You can only "save Johns Island" for so much and for so long. Next it will be Ravenel and McClellanville.
But again, that's just part of the reasons. There's a lot else going on and this problem isnt unique to Charleston. Wages are growing too slow across the country. And it's not just affecting residential either, but commercial too. Lots of college-oriented and local (and even chain) stores and restaurants have been pushed off of King Street or the peninsula lately because the rents keep getting jacked up. And each time its replaced with something higher end, which is disappointing. I feel the city is trying to turn the peninsula into something we just arent: a new, coastal Beverly Hills destination. That's not us.
And the same issue bigger cities like San Fran and New York are facing, we are too. Long time Charlestonians are being priced out and pushed farther out. It's good the area is getting a face lift and some investment is being poured in, but this isn't helping all residents. Hopefully Tecklenberg and co. follow through on their affordable housing promises and hopefully we can bring back some affordable non-res options that have had to leave.
We're already becoming a new Atlanta with our roads thanks to nimbyism and poor design, the last thing we want to become is a new San Francisco with skyrocketing costs and a change of culture.
And be careful with the tech too. I really want the neck and DI to become our tech hub, not downtown. Tech is a big reason to blame for San Fran's changing local culture and skyrocketing prices.
That article reiterates what I was thinking. If 770k people leave NYC for the south and sell their $1M condos, and are replaced by 700k immigrants, I doubt people immigrating to NYC from Puerto Rico or the Middle East or wherever are bringing $1M with them to buy their condos.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way, by ssuming that it is middle class population (or a large volume of immigrants) that drives housing prices and sales in these ultra-hot big-city markets.
The trend I see discussed most frequently is for extremely wealthy investors -- stereotypically "the Chinese", but in truth from all corners of the globe -- to invest in real estate in "safe" places with reliable rule of law, like Sydney, London, SF, LA, and New York. (the poster child for this is Vancouver.) They don't even necessarily live in these houses; the purpose is (sometimes) to gain an investor visa, or establish residence in more-free jurisdiction, or a place for their kids to live in college, or just somewhere to earn a return on their capital.
These are like the "alpha buyers." They in turn create huge cash returns for the property owners they buy from. Now someone lower down the food chain who lived/worked in Manhattan has, say, $1m+ in new cash to spend. They buy someone's home in New Hampshire for $750k... as a second home.. again causing a net population loss. And now you're talking about a waterfall effect that eventually spills to the south, with middle class people from these big cities fleeing (or cashing in on) the insanity.
This is how some particular areas can simultaneously shrink or stagnate in population, while skyrocketing in price. In short the buyers don't even necessarily plan on living there.
These growth rates aren't completely comparable considering we're comparing places with population in the thousands versus the millions.
Right. I'm not the one who was trying to compare Arizona and Florida to Mount Pleasant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrew5
so I don't know why this "depopulation" or this illegal immigrant stuff matters. I was just speaking on raw numbers.
You made a comment about "changing character is just a way the country has gone."
I commented that different parts of the country have entirely different perspectives on changing character. The rust belt, the border states, the northeast, the coastal south -- they are all changing in totally different ways.
If your point is simply that "things change" -- well, ok, sure.
Take a look at Houston, Texas for instance. With as massive as Houston is, 4th largest city in the country, it's COL should be on par with places like NY, LA, San Fran, Miami, etc, but in reality Houston is not much more expensive than Greenville. Why?
Well one factor, Houston has no formal zoning. While this can make for some undesirables, such as a high rise next to a cul de sac, or a liquor store next to an elementary school next to a factory, it has kept prices down. The city doesn't micromanage everything, and nimbyism is scarce, and there's no geographic limits, considering the coast is 50 miles away, so supply has been able to exceed demand.
Houston now actually has more apartments than it needs, which is a good thing is you're looking to rent or buy. Most cities you have to pay more to live in a better area, but with Houston, even the nicest areas of town have great rental rates with decent square footage.
And while sprawl is rampant in Houston, and I mean rampant, the business centers are spread out as well, so you don't have high values coming out of one place then radiating out. Charleston isn't necessarily this way. We have no "edge cities" really. Most of the sprawl is pretty much suburban.
Not saying I want Charleston to drop zoning. Please don't. Just showing that a lot of factors come into play. Even groceries, medical, etc take a cut. A city our size shouldn't be this expensive. Trying to keep everyone out isn't going to work, it isn't going to make someone say "nevermind, I'll go to Savannah." Theyll just pony up more for that space and the prices will continue to rise.
Let's build, and state, please fix our dang roads already.
Right. I'm not the one who was trying to compare Arizona and Florida to Mount Pleasant.
You made a comment about "changing character is just a way the country has gone."
I commented that different parts of the country have entirely different perspectives on changing character. The rust belt, the border states, the northeast, the coastal south -- they are all changing in totally different ways.
If your point is simply that "things change" -- well, ok, sure.
You missed the point of my comparison, but I already said there was confusion and we were not on the same page.
Of course maybe northeasterners are looking here to retire. Yes they get more bang for their buck but it is more the state taxes, cost of living -yup --- etc. I have many okay financially friends living in the north east that say when they retire they can't afford to retire up north. I don't know the ins and outs I'm just saying what they told me.
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