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Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanmyth
In NC? East or west? Sounds like East...not many natural features to limit sprawl? Are you in an RPO?
Maybe get an APFO on the books?
My city was just changed from an RPO to GUAMPO. I'm west of Charlotte at the end of the 74/85 corridor. The roads run parallel until they get here.
I don't know how this effects development in unincorporated areas. I think that the city has control of most of the township. Businesses around the township have requested annexation to get police & fire protection. This will end up to be a god-awful mess & the annexation law will have to be modified, but it may be a few years.
Wow. Who's touchy? No city says "I want to grow up and be like Atlanta, Ga" outside of Georgia.
Trust and believe, Charlotte does. No, it doesn't want the crazy traffic, but it wants the notoriety, the industry, the amenities, and the recognition that comes along with being a top 10 metro. It wants the major events, the retail and restaurants, the higher ed scene (which is a major weakness of Charlotte's currently), the urban college campuses, the attractions, the parks, the New Urbanist developments, and the overall more cosmopolitan flair of Atlanta. And guess what? It's doing a pretty good job of emulating these very positive aspects of Atlanta for the most part.
Seems pretty hard for you to admit that in spite of its mistakes, Atlanta has actually gotten some things right and that up-and-coming cities like Charlotte would do well to check those things out to see what it can learn from them.
Wow. Who's touchy? No city says "I want to grow up and be like Atlanta, Ga" outside of Georgia. I know that must hurt your feelings but get over it. The point of the thread is how Charlotte is working to avoid your mistakes...what we've done and what we still have to not be like you. The thread isn't on the Georgia page. It's on the Charlotte page. If you are so confident that Atlanta is the master of the known universe, why are even bothering arguing with people you consider "less than worthy" of the genius that is Georgia? Move on.
If thats what you think then it is SO obvious who feels they are unworthy.That came out of your month.Your feeling of inadequacy is very evident.Yes its on the NC-Charlotte page but Atlanta is in the POST QUESTION!!!
I have only questioned remarks made by some of you Charlotte posters about whats going on in Atlanta forsake of being factual as it pertains to this thread.Something that many of you have relished.I have shown as other why many of you remarks describing Atlanta as doing nothing or little to combat its sprawl.As if Charlotte is a trailblazer while Atlanta is just sitting still? All this "Dear Heart" and oh "you're touchy" is just smoke and mirrors.
Atlanta has made PLENTY of mistake.I know that.However it has been in correction mode for yeasr.I have not even heard of what Charlotte has been doing on a national level that is so speciall.I have about Atlanta though:
This article is fromm 1999 about the end of Sprawl in Atlanta http://pics3.city-data.com/forum/ima...createlink.gif
The city of Atlanta had been losing population since 1960 in spite of rapid metropolitan growth. That changed in the 1990s and has phenomenally accelerated this decade. The city is now among the top 10 fastest-growing cities in the country"]• The city of Atlanta had been losing population since 1960 in spite of rapid metropolitan growth. That changed in the 1990s and has phenomenally accelerated this decade. The city is now among the top 10 fastest-growing cities in the country
I have read on this thread about Atlanta:
"Has not grown sin decades".
"Stagnant for decades"
"How Charlotte voted for a tax on road and Atlanta could not get a vote on transit"
"Mecklenburg county has already surpassed Fulton in population density"
NONE of that is TRUE.How you gonna discuss something based on false data.Im sorry if my correcting false statements upsets you but it does not make Charlotte any better by stretching the truth.
Urbanism and smart growth examples in Atlanta:
Glenwood Park-Glenwood Park is a mixed-use neighborhood on the east side of Atlanta, Georgia, United States, located just west of East Atlanta Village. The neighborhood is an example of New Urbanism, promoting a sense of community with walkable streets and closely spaced residential units that are mixed in with office, retail, and green space.[1] Glenwood Park is on the BeltLine, a former rail line converted to a trail, with transit to be constructed in the future. http://aisforatlanta.com/wp-content/...rk-Atlanta.jpg http://www.glenwoodpark.com/files/gl...sc_0414-lg.jpg
Serenbe Serenbe is a New Urban village, located in the semi-rural area within the city limits of Chattahoochee Hills, Georgia, in Fulton County, Georgia, in the Atlanta metropolitan area. http://www.cooltownstudios.com/images/ga-serenbe1.jpg
Quote:
Serenbe has drawn national attention as an example of New Urbanism in the South. With its organic farm and land-use plan that encourages conservation of agricultural land, Serenbe is at the same time an example of Development Supported Agriculture, a nascent movement in real estate development that preserves and invests in agricultural land use. The village is also noted as a destination for visitors seeking to experience its New Urbanist design, its natural setting and its farm-to-table restaurants, shopping and accommodations
The Farmhouse restaurant at Serenbe has become a showcase in the Southeast for the farm-to-table movement
Serenbe:
ULI Atlanta Chapter – 2008 Sustainability Award
Atlanta Regional Commission – 2008 Development of Excellence
In 2000, while jogging, Mr. Nygren noticed bulldozers on adjacent farmland and promptly panicked that Atlanta’s sprawl was about to consume his solitude. He quickly purchased 900 acres adjacent to the farm and, feeling it was inevitable that land so close to the city would be developed, determined to set an example
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SOMEBODY PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE CHARLOTTE HAS GARNERED NATIONAL ACCLAIM FOR NEW URBANISM PROJECTS ANYWHERE IN ITS METRO FOR URBAN ISM?
Last edited by SunnyKayak; 02-23-2013 at 10:55 AM..
Reason: please post links to copyrighted pictures
NC's GDP is larger than Georgia's. GA is ranked 10th, NC is 9th. VA, my home, is 8th. The combined GDP of Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham and the Triad is $288 billion.
Yes and the year or two befor that GA had a GDP more than NC.Its so close it not even worth it.But if you CANNOT win one argument.....oh I see you know the end of that sentence because you did it already.
Tell me what they are doing now that Atlanta hasn't already done or isn't doing?
The stats don't show much difference yet.
That is what I and others have been getting at.I can admit and I have when Im wrong but thses guys just keep on with no example other than we did this with no results to show or speak of.Yet no specific examples on how that is better than what Atlanta has been doing lately.Its already been acknowledge that Charlotte has the benefit of doing things earlier but some are acting like Atlanta is just not doing anything.
Goodness, 61 posts since I last looked at this topic. Yet the central point of my first post was never proven wrong or even addressed. (except as outrage that I'd even suggest it)
Restating it again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad
And there is the problem. None of them want to actually live in Atlanta. The population of the city has been stagnant for decades. Hence you have 3M people living in a sprawl that spreads over dozens of counties that jam highways trying to commute to work. Though it has a heavy rail transit line, ATL's answer to this is to pave over the state in response. It's an example of everything wrong with city development.
Despite the fact the Atlanta MSA is at least 2.5X larger than Charlotte's MSA it's core county and city are growing much slower. Mecklenburg county has already surpassed Fulton in population density. Charlotte should be commended for not following ATL's example.
In CLT the vast majority of the people moving to the area move into the core county. In ATL the vast majority of the people move to the 28 county sprawl around the core county.
This is why traffic is so bad in ATL.
I'm glad you boys from ATL are so interested in CLT to make so many posts in our forum. Hopefully you will learn a few things about CLT and how we do things in NC. (If you can get beyond the point that NC does not look to GA for anything) Maybe you can apply it to the GA sprawl that surrounds ATL city. You need to do something.
Outside of this topic, I received a lot of interesting and positive responses to this post from people who thanked me for saying but didn't want to get down into the snake pit that every topic involving ATL seems to turn into when posted in the CLT forum.
Since I see nothing else relevant to Charlotte's future development being posted in these 61 posts, I'm done with this topic too.
If thats what you think then it is SO obvious who feels they are unworthy....
Atlanta has made PLENTY of mistake.I know that.However it has been in correction mode for yeasr.I have not even heard of what Charlotte has been doing on a national level that is so speciall.I have about Atlanta though:
...
One of the few cities in the metro that have embraced Urbanism even 30 miles from Downtown Atlanta
Downtown Woodstock(redone)
Serenbe is a New Urban village, located in the semi-rural area within the city limits of Chattahoochee Hills, Georgia, in Fulton County, Georgia, in the Atlanta metropolitan area.
Serenbe:
ULI Atlanta Chapter – 2008 Sustainability Award
Atlanta Regional Commission – 2008 Development of Excellence
SOMEBODY PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE CHARLOTTE HAS GARNERED NATIONAL ACCLAIM FOR NEW URBANISM PROJECTS ANYWHERE IN ITS METRO FOR URBAN ISM?
It reminds me of London, where I lived for over 20 years.
Maybe if the studied London more, they could do even better, in creating a truly walkable environment.
For instance, are they building the public squares? They could find space for them, if the added a story or two. And there then might be a gain for everyone.
The patterns of development are very different. This is the point of the thread. Atlanta, GA's metro is considered a poster child for sprawl, disconnected and automobile dependent development. It may be changing but you can't even get people to vote to pay for road improvements in the Atlanta metro. Charlotte area residents voted by over 70% - twice - to levy a tax on themselves to pay for mass transit.
And yet the Red Line, to one of the areas of the Charlotte metro that has the most sprawl, is not likely to happen anytime soon if ever. See one of the other threads on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanmyth
Charlotte at 1.7 million has not grown like Atlanta at 1.7 million. This is very point of the thread. You have not proven your point and it's your accusation. The facts are that you can't stand to imagine that another city in Southeast is doing something, anything, better than the center of the Georgian universe.
Atlanta at 1.7 million did not have a light rail system and a streetcar line under construction. It didn't have form based codes to guide development. Your airport wasn't the busiest in the world when there were 1.7 million people in your MSA. Streets were not required to be interconnected, cul de sacs weren't outlawed, and the downtown of Atlanta, GA was NOT growing in residential population when your MSA was 1.7 million.
Do you know what year your MSA was 1.7 million?
Hint....before 1970.
Compared to Atlanta, GA in 1965, (Atlanta, Ga at 1.7 million), Charlotte is a much better place and they owe much of it to what they learned from your mistakes. In Virginia planning, we look at Charlotte and Maryland for our examples of good growth. But, guess what, Charlotteans aren't offended when we visit Charlotte and say we want to learn from their mistakes. They share their lessons and wish us luck. It's a lesson in humility that Georgians should learn.
I think this is the first post in this entire thread that actually tries to explain what Charlotte is doing differently now than Atlanta did in the past. I may not have realized that Charlotte's metro now is the same size as Atlanta's in 1970, and that is when Atlanta's population started to decline, so that is certainly a check in the win column for Charlotte. While Charlotte only has one rail line right now and is slowly puttering at adding more, at least it is ahead of Atlanta at this stage of its growth.
Still, I'm not sure how much of Charlotte's differences are not just a result of national trends rather than Charlotte doing anything radically different. As for Atlanta in 1970, race relations at the time played a major role in residents fleeing the city to the suburbs, as they did in many cities. Now, the increased popularity of city-living nationwide happens to coincide with a period of overall growth for Charlotte (and although it's not really relevant to the topic at hand, our Atlanta friends have pointed out that it is happening in their city now as well). But once again, this period of growth is by no means limited just to Mecklenburg County as one poster here seems to suggest, and that's really been my main point all along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frewroad
Goodness, 61 posts since I last looked at this topic. Yet the central point of my first post was never proven wrong or even addressed. (except as outrage that I'd even suggest it)
Restating it again.
Originally Posted by frewroad
And there is the problem. None of them want to actually live in Atlanta. The population of the city has been stagnant for decades. Hence you have 3M people living in a sprawl that spreads over dozens of counties that jam highways trying to commute to work. Though it has a heavy rail transit line, ATL's answer to this is to pave over the state in response. It's an example of everything wrong with city development.
In CLT the vast majority of the people moving to the area move into the core county. In ATL the vast majority of the people move to the 28 county sprawl around the core county.
This is why traffic is so bad in ATL.
This was addressed countless times. For one, Atlanta has more than one core county. How many is debatable, as I disagree with the Atlanta forumers saying it is 5 (which in itself suggests that Atlanta's sprawl is worse), but they have one other county that is only 2 miles from downtown.
Meanwhile, three counties in the Charlotte metro grew faster than Mecklenburg from 2000 - 2010. These same three counties were not far behind Mecklenburg from 2010 - 2011. And again, Mecklenburg itself contains a significant amount of sprawl.
So while Charlotte is ahead of Atlanta at this stage of the game, and due to various factors some of which the city of Charlotte itself didn't have much if anything to do with, I think it is reasonable to believe that Charlotte's traffic will never be worse than Atlanta's. But at the same time you can't deny that they also share many similarities which could lead to that difference shrinking significantly in the future.
And yet the Red Line, to one of the areas of the Charlotte metro that has the most sprawl, is not likely to happen anytime soon if ever. See one of the other threads on this forum.
I think this is the first post in this entire thread that actually tries to explain what Charlotte is doing differently now than Atlanta did in the past. I may not have realized that Charlotte's metro now is the same size as Atlanta's in 1970, and that is when Atlanta's population started to decline, so that is certainly a check in the win column for Charlotte. While Charlotte only has one rail line right now and is slowly puttering at adding more, at least it is ahead of Atlanta at this stage of its growth.
Still, I'm not sure how much of Charlotte's differences are not just a result of national trends rather than Charlotte doing anything radically different. As for Atlanta in 1970, race relations at the time played a major role in residents fleeing the city to the suburbs, as they did in many cities. Now, the increased popularity of city-living nationwide happens to coincide with a period of overall growth for Charlotte (and although it's not really relevant to the topic at hand, our Atlanta friends have pointed out that it is happening in their city now as well). But once again, this period of growth is by no means limited just to Mecklenburg County as one poster here seems to suggest, and that's really been my main point all along.
This was addressed countless times. For one, Atlanta has more than one core county. How many is debatable, as I disagree with the Atlanta forumers saying it is 5 (which in itself suggests that Atlanta's sprawl is worse), but they have one other county that is only 2 miles from downtown.
Meanwhile, three counties in the Charlotte metro grew faster than Mecklenburg from 2000 - 2010. These same three counties were not far behind Mecklenburg from 2010 - 2011. And again, Mecklenburg itself contains a significant amount of sprawl.
So while Charlotte is ahead of Atlanta at this stage of the game, and due to various factors some of which the city of Charlotte itself didn't have much if anything to do with, I think it is reasonable to believe that Charlotte's traffic will never be worse than Atlanta's. But at the same time you can't deny that they also share many similarities which could lead to that difference shrinking significantly in the future.
Its not a "Suggestion" about Atlanta having 5 core counties.Its fact.This is not even debatable.If you lived in Atlanta you would know this is fact.
Most people dont even realize that 10% of the city of Atlanta is in Dekalb County.A small unincorporated portion is in Clayton County where the Airport is.
Quote:
Fulton County is one of the five core counties of the Atlanta metropolitan
If thats what you think then it is SO obvious who feels they are unworthy.That came out of your month.Your feeling of inadequacy is very evident.Yes its on the NC-Charlotte page but Atlanta is in the POST QUESTION....
.
SOMEBODY PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE CHARLOTTE HAS GARNERED NATIONAL ACCLAIM FOR NEW URBANISM PROJECTS ANYWHERE IN ITS METRO FOR URBAN ISM?
Why all the pictures and obsession?...it isn't necessary. I've stated it 10x in this thread, Charlotte's advantage is the era in which their growth spurt will occur from 2 mill MSA to 4 mill MSA - basically when urbanism is encouraged with many city leaders being much more astitute, engaged and proactive about controlling sprawl. Unfortunately for Atlanta, that spurt occured during an era when many downtown or central core areas were fleeced due the advent of the large enclosed mall and big box stores. That said, Atlanta managed to pull off heavy rail but at this point in the process, the traffic situation is incorrectable and Charlotte has a narrow window of opportunity to offset many of problems plaguing Atlanta. However, no one is denying the fact that Atlanta isn't making progress towards urban pockets which you seem overly obsessed with communicating in this thread....we GET IT....it's larger challenge at this point, but not impossible.
IMO, all indicators show Charlotte's traffic issues will ultimately mirror Atlantas down the road, although it has an opportunity to significantly provide a better planned urban environment than current day Atlanta....and in some areas is doing just that.
So, calm the fk down....
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