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"Illinois though much larger than states like Michigan (U-M, MSU) and Indiana (IU, Purdue) has only one flagship public university (U of I), forcing so many of our states best students to finding slots at schools like UW, IU, UIowa. If UIC were our second flagship, a need would be served.
Forced? I'm storry to disagre. I never met any IL student who was farced to go to school out of state if he did not want to leave. What are the mitigating circumstances that caused this great injustice? Personally, I think if a student has a goal and meets it, his education in Illinois public universities will not be lacking much except an iny league name. I don't think the age of a school has any bearing on the quality of its teachers.
Nobody needs to be "forced" to go to a school like Madison. And I would never even suggest that UW-Madison is inferior in any way to UIUC. Nor would I ever consider going to either Bloomington or Iowa City for college isn't anything but a great move.
You missed my point all together, linicx. I wasn't making any reference to UIUC's status in relationship to those other schools. What I was suggesting is that the slots for Illinois students wanting to go to a flagship institution instate are far fewer than than the options for kids in Wisconsin, Indiana, Iowa, and Michigan.
Indeed, if one were to ask most people which university is better, UIUC or UW-Madison, I would guess that the majority would go with Madison.
But UIUC has far, far more pressure on enrollment than Madison has, not due to quality, but due to in-state population. Excellent students in Wisconsin are far more fortunate that they can get in the Madison than would be true of Illinois kids wanting to go to UIUC.
Forced to go to Madison only means "it comes with a higher price tag"; it is no reflection on the university and for me to have even made such a reflection on my part would be borderline insanity.
The Big Ten country is exceptional. All ten public universities are considered public ivies. But leaving the Chicago suburbs to go off to school in Iowa City, Madison, Lafayette, Bloomington, or East Lansing comes with a price tag.
As for the quality of Illinois schools, I am not questioning the ability of UIC, NIU, ISU, or SIU do offer quality education; nor am I suggesting that anyone could not go to any of those institutions and not end up with as good of an education as they would have gotten at UIUC.
But I don't make the rules. And I'm not responsible for kids who want to go to a major flagship (UIUC, UW-Madison, IU, UIowa) over UIC, NIU, ISU, or SIU. Perhaps they want to go because of the full range of activities and college life they perceive best happen at those flagships. Or perhaps they feel that a UIUC or UW-Madison degree will get them further on the job than a UIC or NIU degree would.
States do have a reason for differentiating flagships. They do want to provide the one or two schools for their top in-state students, for the research those institutions conduct with the benefits to the economy because of that, as well as for the prestige that these universities bring to the state.
I'm a UIUC alumnus and I know plenty. UIUC has a similar student population size and a similar reputation really to UIowa and UWisconsin. But the state's population is much bigger. Because of the good reputation and in-state tuition, many smart Illinois high-schoolers try to go to UIUC, but there are only so many slots. The best have no trouble getting into UIUC, but some of the merely very good get rejected these days, and are going to other Big Ten (and Big 12) schools in neighboring states, because they want a large research university with a great reputation and lots of opportunities. Unfortunately, I agree that Illinois has only one such university that is public.
UIUC's students have gotten better and better as the competition increased as the baby boomlet ramped up. So it's not all bad. But what if there was a second University, just a small step down (or up, for that matter) from UIUC? That would be great. Illinois families might save thousands in tuition because they don't have to pay out-of-state. Those college student dollars would boost the economy and jobs would be created to teach and administer those students here instead of in Iowa. Illinois would have more technology spinoffs and more home-grown top talent.
Anyone who talks to a lot of middle- to upper-class college-age folks in Illinois knows someone who had their eye on UIUC and went to a school in a neighboring state instead, without strongly considering any other Illinois public universities.
as far as agreement: I could have written this one myself.
absolutely spot on, meatball.
Look at California. It doesn't operate with the usual flagship(s) that other states do, but it certainly gives a special status to UC as a system with nobody arguing that Cal and UCLA are the crown jewels.
But a UC education carries a lot no matter which campus you are talking about. And California, unlike Illinois, has a number of stellar institutions and has the highest quality of public education available to all its metro areas:
Sacramento: UCD
Bay Area: Cal (and medicine at UCSF)
LA: UCLA, UCR, UCI
San Diego: UCSD
That alone would make a great argument for UIC to be developed into an institution on par with UIUC.
And how many more billions do you want allocated to create the second flagship?
U of I has had 45 years and untold billions to do something with UIC and up to this point have been unwilling to more than the bare minimum. By any objective measure, that makes the U of I a failed institution, and comparisons to U of California a complete joke. Hell, they can't even pass Michigan or Wisconsin on the pecking order of the Big Ten! Run a true statewide university system? Give them more money to do it? Give me a break.
And what on earth makes you think that even if the money were allocated it wouldn't be siphoned off to Urbana to be spent on "essentials' like a new football stadium, or free health clubs for students, or deluxe dorms, or any of the other useless crap they've pissing money away on over the last five years?
Seriously, THAT is what U of I has been spending money on since White became president (not to mention the millions squandered on the global campus), at the very same time tuition has doubled. And now they are broke and threatening "major" tuition increases to offset reduced state funding.
Thats right! "Major" tuition increases are needed.......again.
And how many more billions do you want allocated to create the second flagship?
U of I has had 45 years and untold billions to do something with UIC and up to this point have been unwilling to more than the bare minimum. By any objective measure, that makes the U of I a failed institution, and comparisons to U of California a complete joke. Hell, they can't even pass Michigan or Wisconsin on the pecking order of the Big Ten! Run a true statewide university system? Give them more money to do it? Give me a break.
And what on earth makes you think that even if the money were allocated it wouldn't be siphoned off to Urbana to be spent on "essentials' like a new football stadium, or free health clubs for students, or deluxe dorms, or any of the other useless crap they've pissing money away on over the last five years?
Seriously, THAT is what U of I has been spending money on since White became president (not to mention the millions squandered on the global campus), at the very same time tuition has doubled. And now they are broke and threatening "major" tuition increases to offset reduced state funding.
Thats right! "Major" tuition increases are needed.......again.
Despite your assessments, I would still say that most people in the field of higher education consider Cal and UCLA to be better institutions then even lofty places like U-M and UW. California is a mess from head to toe; the UC system, a brilliant concept, suffers with the rest of the state. And California's plight is the plight of the nation. Your statement on U-M and UW deserves a "give me a break" far more than mine does.
I do not disagree with you about the power of Urbana in the UI system or indeed over all public IL universities. I am merely suggesting that the state of Illinois is better served by two flagships. We are the largest state in the midwest, yet both Michigan (U-M, MSU) and Indiana (IU, Purdue) offer twice the slots for students wishing to attend a flagship than we do. And Wisconsin, through UW alone, offers in one school far more options to its high school seniors as WI is a far smaller state than IL.
I don't expect any mountains to be moved during these tough economic times. And vision in the future of higher education will get short changed now as so many other issues press. But IL would be wise in a long term goal to think of two flagships and have one within the midst of a metro area with far more than half the state's population. Does California and Los Angeles benefit from UCLA's location? California and the Bay Area from Cal's location? Washington and Seattle on UWashington's location? Do Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh benefit from Pitt's location?Minnesota and Minneapolis on U of M's location? You bet. Illinois and Chicago would be incredibly served by UIC being a top notch, flagship institution.
From PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, not statistics, (so this is my personal experiences with the university..)
I think that it will remain the same.
UIC has some great programs such as the GPPA program, but the majority of the students refuse to think critically. They go to class, but their main priority isn't school, it is hanging out. The schoolwork at UIC is the same of that say of University of Illinois in Champaign; there actually isn't a huge difference in the schoolwork of any universities. The difference is the CURVE. The majority of students are not concerned enough with their schoolwork and do poorly. There are some brilliant students that attend like all colleges, but it is rare.
The professors on the other hand are amazing. I mean, UIC is located right next to downtown chicago, so that itself attracts so many great professors. They want to live near the middle of the city, so they choose to work at UIC.
I'm a UIC grad. I'm going to feel damn old by saying this, but I was a student when the campus opened. Indeed, during my first quarter, access to buildings across campus was only available on the second level ramp system. Below was a sea of construction mud still in place.
Back then it was UICC or simply "The Circle" and the school went from second floor access to both first and second floor access to many years later only first floor access. A lot has changed.
And I'm too close to the school as an alum my whole (long) life to be able to see the forest from the trees. So I will plead total ignorance, maybe from knowing too much. So tell me:
How much is Chicago and Chicagoland aware that UIC is out there. Look, I realize that the school is known, but I wonder how great the perception is. I would think, even locally, that NU and the U of C have a higher name recognition than UIC. I'm not sure, but I suspect that DePaul and Loyola might to.
And I wonder if a lot of people, when they hear the name "UIC" actually have to go through the mental process of "the I must be Illinois" and "the C must be Chicago"
As said, I really don't know the answer here. What do you folks think the name recognition of UIC is locally....and, for that matter, nationally?
FWIW, I am graduate student in the social sciences transferring programs from Loyola to UIC. They are much more high-profile at the graduate level, with top-notch funding packages and research output to boot.
Since institutional profiles tend to rise and fall depending on the strength of graduate programs, I will not be surprised if UIC's profile raises significantly over the next 10-20 years. They're attracting some excellent faculty and students.
I agree that UIC is improving. In 1998, I had a conference hosted by UIC when I was in college. I remember we were not allowed to be by ourselves out of fear for our safety. This may have been overzealous for a bunch of Big Ten kids, but whatever. We stayed at the Crown Plaza in the West Loop. At the time, there was very little significant development west of there. Obviously, that has changed bigtime in the last 12 years.
I think US News tends to err on the side known as 'full of crap'.
For instance, they claim NIU to be a tier 4 in the national university category.
At the same time, the small, private Catholic institution I attended for my undergraduate years is a tier 1 and has a score and rank. While this makes me feel better that the $80k I spent was with some recognition, I'd wonder how the faculty at NIU were not offering an education that was 'better' than where I received mine.
Plus, US News explicitly states that master's programs aren't ranked. We all know that this only adds to frustration because there are many schools that are lackluster in undergraduate studies but are great at the graduate and doctoral level.
As for the question at hand, I should hope their profile would rise. In my particular degree of study (English Literature), it is clear that they are a top research university. The program has a heavy focus in 'theory' (which can be both a blessing and a deterrent) and works hand in hand with the Newberry (excellent research library) to promote success in classwork.
A large component of the US News ranking is student selectivity and retention. They look at the average SAT/ACT score for incoming students; the higher the average, the higher the score the school gets. Also, they look at retention and graduation rates. Schools with higher rates receive higher scores. Thus, a large part of the ranking is determined by what kinds of students the school attracts.
If a school has a more liberal admissions policy it will receive a lower rank, regardless of the quality of education being provided. Also, if a school has more non-traditional students (who are older, have jobs, have kids, and may take longer to graduate or may fail to graduate) they school will often receive a lower score, again, regardless of the quality of education.
US News also includes the school's spending per student on instruction and alumni giving as variables. These will often be higher at small private schools.
The fact is, with the academic job market as tight as it is (very much a "buyers' market"), the professors at almost every institution of higher learning are of a rather high caliber. Part-time adjunct instructors at state schools are usually very well trained.
In sum, the rankings are mostly determined by the make-up of the student body, financial resources, and reputation (a survey of university administrators accounts for 25 percent of the ranking). These things are important, but the rankings can misleading and can be misused.
....the majority of the students refuse to think critically. They go to class, but their main priority isn't school, it is hanging out.....The majority of students are not concerned enough with their schoolwork and do poorly.....
Well, it is MY OPINION, based on MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (not statistics, mind you!! only anecdotally), that those who indulge in this variety of contumely are rarely in a position to disparage the "critical" thinking skills of a Doberman Pinscher.
I therefore humbly suggest that you take a fresh look at your classmates (or less fresh, depending on how you prefer to use the word). Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they don't work as hard as you because they don't HAVE to?
Last edited by NearWestSider; 01-25-2010 at 08:05 PM..
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UIC is getting better
). Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they don't work as hard as you because they don't HAVE to?
