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God created man to resolve the angelic conflict. When Satan rebelled against God, he was sentenced to the lake of fire. But he won't occupy the lake of fire until the end of human history. In the meantime, God is demonstrating through man, who He created as a result of Satan's rebellion, that He was justified to impose the sentence that He did on Satan. Satan used his free will to turn against God. So God created a lessor being called man and gave him volition or free will just as the angels had. As human history plays out in its varying circumstances and under different dispensations, there are members of the human race who will believe in Christ for salvation. There are very many more, who will reject Christ. But everytime a person does accept Christ as Savior, it demonstrates to the angels that they, who had been in the presence of God in heaven, and who were vastly superior to man, had no excuse for rebelling against God.
When God created Adam, He placed him in the garden. And to give Adam's free will something with which to work, He placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and then commanded Adam not to eat it. God had always known from eternity past that Adam would disobey Him and eat the fruit. And He had created His plan of salvation, also in eternity past, with regard to that fact. God used Adam's disobedience to eventually bring many son's into glory-All who will believe in Christ. Those who reject Christ will join Satan in the lake of fire.
The free will of man is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict. If you want more details on what this spiritual warfare called the angelic conflict is about, go to this thread...
Yes really - it's the cornerstone of fundamentalist ET Christian theology.
Billions of immortal souls (most who were FOREKNOWN to be damned) created just to make the point that bad free-will choices will not be tolerated.
Beautiful.
Of course, I have provided strong scriptural evidence that the prehistoric Luciferian rebellion is an extra biblical myth. Yet, when you remove it the entire eternal hell mythology crumbles too and then you lose a large percentage of the 'faithful' who profess they would rather practice evil if there is no eternal hell.
I view the Genesis story - and everything else in scripture - as a kind of parable, to help me understand myself - and have hope, to carry on, in spite of all the pain and disappointments in life...
......I rather think we are all the same person - but it's the different circumstances and peculiar talents given to each of us individually, that make us seem different - "he fashions all the hearts of men alike" Ps 33:14-15. To me, Mankind is the Son of God - the Christ - it means "anointed" - here for a purpose and empowered to fulfill that purpose.....
.....The Antireligious - we live lives of quiet desperation, born in another's pain, die in our own - since men come and go, they don't matter - the earth remains.....
..... I think the wisest people keep this stuff "subliminal" - they may go to church, they may not - but everyone is aware of the ultimate questions - wise people "walk by faith", they don't demand so many specific answers, if you insist on something specific, you'll wind up with something faulty, that sets you at odds with your fellows - and yet, those people get things done, that the Whole needs....
Love your points shunammite. At the end when you said "those people get things done" I was reminded how recently a fundie organization did a great job at getting my son-in-law get off of drugs.
ACE: Here is another thread where these things are discussed a bit.
If he WANTED them to learn to distinguish between good and evil, and the only way to learn that is to eat from this tree, why did he tell them not to eat from it??
Why didn't he say, "Eat this fruit so you will be able to distinguisd good and evil"? Why do they have to eat some magic fruit to learn this? It makes no sense....
I believe they had to make an initial choice -- either to obey or to disobey. Since God told them what the consequences for disobedience would be, they came to realize that God meant business. I probably differ from most Christians in this regard, but I don't believe that they actually sinned by eating the fruit. Until they came to a knowledge of good and evil, they were unaware that disobeying God was actually sinful. After they ate, however, they became accountable for all future choices. To me, it's just a matter of God doing things in an orderly way. You ask why God didn't just tell them to go ahead and eat the fruit. Why require that they eat the fruit at all? Why didn't God create them already knowing the difference between good and evil? I think it was important that they learn this by their own experience.
It's kind-of interesting how people come to a "general consensus" when speaking of literal biblical interpretations.
Usually when someone questions the literal interpretation of the bible, people reply by saying the bible isn't intended to be literal, but more "metaphorical".
While a metaphorical interpretation of the bible can be useful in helping to guide people to making moral decisions in life, I don't think the people who wrote it intended it to be interpreted this way.
If the bible was supposed to be "metaphorical",then there would be some sort of indication of this intended use. Quite frankly though, most passages in the bible attempt to convince the reader that the "key players" were real people, and that the things written actually did happen.
If you don't believe this is the case, then basing your religion on a "metaphorical book" seems a little silly. Either the stuff happened, or it didn't. If it didn't happen, then it probably isn't "religion worthy".
There are plenty of good morals in many other fictional stories, why turn these stories into an entire religion? The fact is, religion is NOT necessary for good morals.
I have ventured off topic by a ways and I apologize.
I don't think it's very constructive to debate the tree of knowledge in a "metaphorical" context, sinse anyone's interpretation can be thier own reality.
If you wish to discuss the use of the bible as a "metaphorical guide book", then that's a different subject. I have no objection to discussing that in this thread however...
Hello Ace. I think the bible DOES pronounce itself "metaphorical" - over and over. Ps 78 recounts the history of Israel, v. 2 calls it all a "parable". In Matt 13, Jesus says "without a parable spake he not unto them". Prov 1:4,6 says "the simple must learn to understand dark sayings", and the book of Proverbs sets out to straighten them out. "Come now, let us reason together", it's the invitation at the opening of Isaiah - well now, when you have stories where the sun stands still for 24 hours, where a man's concubine is handed over to be abused all night then her husband chops her into pieces and mails the parts all over Israel, when a man's strength is in his long hair, and when you shave it, he is impotent (almost cut my hair, Crosby Stills and Nash!), when this man kills 1000 men with a jawbone of an ass, when a man's ass speaks to him and tells him he's a fool, when three men go into a furnace and come out unharmed but the flames leap out and destroy those who cast them in - just a few random stories coming to mind - these are not "reasonable" - but they are not meaningless either, to me - thus, "metaphor". And how.
I admit getting a little confused if I try to REALLY figure it out - I mean, there really IS a Sun up in the sky - how do I jive that with the description of Ps 19 - an obvious reference to Christ and/or Samson? And - there really ARE Jewish People - and Jerusalem - today - yet in the scripture they seem like metaphors, to me - the Jew is the Individual, accountable to God by his Conscience, his inner man, his spirit of divinity, his "christ". The Gentile is the Group - huddled together for an attempt at "security", all about people pleasing and conformity. Every man is both. Every man is both Jacob and Esau to me - they are twins wrestling, in the womb and out. Something like those Prodigal Parable brothers. Jerusalem - the word means dual sources of flowing peace - to me this peace is a sense of resolution of conflict in a satisfying way - not "nothingness" - but there are two you know, Jerusalem above and below, Gal 4.
I say to obey the letter of the scripture is to disobey the spirit of it. See Isaiah 58, probably my favorite chapter in the bible. But it's all right, if that's how you really see it - a person is only accountable to the understanding he has. (To his own master he stands or falls, yea he shall be holden up, Rom 14:4.) My son thought, to be on the "safe side", he better carry a little cross around, because it says "take up your cross daily" - and when he prayed, guess where he went?! Yup, into his closet. Just to be on the "safe side". I thought he was kind of an idiot at the time - now I think I am not worthy to unlace his shoes. But to me, the "safe side" is doing according to what you actually understand to be right, and not what you have been ordered to "do or die". Go ahead and kill me, I say, if I don't see the good of it, I'm not doing it.
Well, if the bible means nothing to you - and why would it, if you didn't know it well - you must find something else to serve as your framework for meaning - or - just live that unexamined life that is not worth living according to Socrates. Actually I think if a person can sleepwalk through life, he's LUCKY. I just couldn't do it - I had to keep asking "but why mommy" - all my life. Ask you you shall receive. Now I wish I didn't know so much, increase wisdom, increase sorrow<--bible verse.
I think everything that grips the human heart is telling the same messages that are in the bible - Jack and Jill, Hansel and Gretel, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Pandora, Ulysses. Everything in pop culture, that I love, the more I think about it, the more it seems to echo the bible - maybe that's just me - The Long and Winding Road, Hey Jude(Judas), Stairway to Heaven.
Every great film - to me - is a "bible story" - Speed - I read about the production - everyone thought that story was stupid as hell - sure it's ridiculous as "reality" (but hey reality is not all that real, here today gone tomorrow, whereas these archetypes stick around!) - but I thought that film represented what real life feels like, in a really powerful way - and in our own story, we play all the parts - the angry vengeful guy, the never say die never quit trying hero, the clueless steadfast suffering female/sidekick.
Hero of the Day, Metallica song - same ideas as the Three Little Pigs and Hansel and Gretel woven together. Jack and the Beanstalk - same idea as Roy Orbison's Workin' for the Man - Jack retrieves what belonged to his father by derring-do. Roy achieves manhood by long suffering - the stories feel the same, to me.
Another one of my long-winded posts - so sorry, can't make it short - and for all that hot air, can't really explain much either. Just try and try and keep trying, that's all I know. And when you get too tired, rest.
One more thought - one of the STUPIDEST passages to take literally is the widow's two mites (Luke 21:2) - used in church to indicate you should give till it hurts - well, to me, a "widow" means "hasn't got a clue" and "hasn't got anyone to help her". (A husband and children give understanding and support.) Jesus praises her for throwing in her "two mites" because it was "all her living". So literally, NOW WHAT? She's a burden on everyone else? Is that "righteousness"?? No, I think it means, she gave all she had - just like people without much understanding but "zealous for god", doing the best they know - suicide bombers e.g. - clueless - but sincere - I guess - giving everything you've got is always kind of impressive - but - living to fight another day and to PREVAIL - is best - to me - the actual meaning of Israel - and Sarah - female version of same word.
However, we all give everything we've got - some do it in a fell swoop, some in a slow trickle - but we are all giving what we have.
My brother is extremely anti-religion - long story to explain how we are so different - but he is not any more "free" than any religious person - if you avoid one cow patty in the pasture, you step on another one - very worried about carcinogens and the environment and politics. Whereas I don't care too much about that stuff. Although I MAJORED in political science, lol.
"An angry, egotistical deity with a permanent chip on his shoulder"?
Hmmm... Let's examine our bibles for a minute shall we?
Is this the same god who killed every living thing on the earth because he thought humans had become too evil?
Doesn't sound angry to me...
Job 9:22
"He destroys both the blameless and the wicked."
Very just...
Exodus 12:29
"At midnight the lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon."
Let's see here, god killed all the Egyptian's innocent children because Pharaoh disobeyed him?
Yeah, no chip on his shoulder...
Deuteronomy 13:6-11
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."
Worship any other god and I will force your own family to stone you to death!
That doesn't sound egotistical to me...
It also proves that there ARE other gods that are equally as valid as that one. Because, if there weren't, then "God" wouldn't fear them so much that he'd have to threaten people to not worship them.
What is it about these other gods that makes them such a threat to this God, hm? Could it be...they exist?
Or perhaps, could this entire story be fiction, and this underlying theme scattered throughout the story be "the old gods are obsolete, we've created a new model. Lacking media advertising and Happy Meal toys, we'll have to resort to threats to force everyone to throw the old ones out and buy the new one."
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