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Old 07-11-2010, 04:26 PM
 
3,270 posts, read 5,282,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The elect were those who lived during the transition from old covenant to new covenant.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, (1 Peter 1:1)

Jesus told the disciples that they would judge the twelve tribes. "
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This was said to THEM... not us ... them.

The first of the harvest: You know that Stephanas and his household were the first of the harvest of believers in Greece, and they are spending their lives in service to God's people. I urge you, dear brothers and sisters,(1 Cor. 16:15)

The elect has absolutely nothing to do with modern day Christians!
Where in Scripture does it say that the elect has nothing to do with modern day Christians? Didn't God chose his elect before they were born no matter what time in human history they lived?

"Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim 2:10).

In that statement Paul explains he was willing to suffer for the elect that they might obtain what they have been elected to. God not only chooses those who will be saved, but has also chosen believers to be the instruments for bringing His people to salvation. So are you saying also that only the first century Christians were part of the election only to preach the gospel or spread God's word as well? If you believe that, then I guess the preaching work of modern day Christians has absolutely nothing to do with modern day Christians as well.

Last edited by antredd; 07-11-2010 at 04:59 PM..
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Canada
589 posts, read 1,350,936 times
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The elect is the Woman of Rev 12 and the remnant of her seed which is the 144000 witnesses. They are the true believers who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (verse 17). It means they are Christians who obey all the 10 Commandments including the 4th which majority of churches reject.

In the end time she is protected by God... being given the "wings of an eagle" so she could fly to the Wilderness of Jordan and fed manna for 3.5 yrs. The great multitude of Christians who only have the Blood/Testimony of Jesus Christ but don't keep the Commandments (Rev 12:11) are killed in the Great Trib. At the end of the Great Trib the elect are the only believers without the Mark to be saved from beheading (Matt 24:22).
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:24 PM
 
40,246 posts, read 26,840,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilvan View Post
The elect is the Woman of Rev 12 and the remnant of her seed which is the 144000 witnesses. They are the true believers who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (verse 17). It means they are Christians who obey all the 10 Commandments including the 4th which majority of churches reject.

In the end time she is protected by God... being given the "wings of an eagle" so she could fly to the Wilderness of Jordan and fed manna for 3.5 yrs. The great multitude of Christians who only have the Blood/Testimony of Jesus Christ but don't keep the Commandments (Rev 12:11) are killed in the Great Trib. At the end of the Great Trib the elect are the only believers without the Mark to be saved from beheading (Matt 24:22).
. . . And the Hydra will combine forces with the Kraken and decimate those who piqued the ire of the mighty Titans!!!
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,689,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
The elect were those who lived during the transition from old covenant to new covenant.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
(1 Peter 1:1)

Jesus told the disciples that they would judge the twelve tribes. "

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This was said to THEM... not us ... them.


The first of the harvest: You know that Stephanas and his household were the first of the harvest of believers in Greece, and they are spending their lives in service to God's people. I urge you, dear brothers and sisters,(1 Cor. 16:15)


The elect has absolutely nothing to do with modern day Christians!
Where in Scripture does it say that the elect has nothing to do with modern day Christians? Didn't God chose his elect before they were born no matter what time in human history they lived?
Elect means chosen right? In scripture what is it that the elect are chosen to do? Who was spoken to as the chosen ones?

We always must keep in mind that when Jesus is talking to Peter or Peter is writing a letter to the churches.. these people actually read or heard these words (or similar ones anyway). When Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel," he meant them.. the twelve standing in front of him.


Quote:
"Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim 2:10).

In that statement Paul explains he was willing to suffer for the elect that they might obtain what they have been elected to.
Paul is talking about a specific elect. He isn't being whimsical and including everyone who will ever live... He is talking about the oppression of the Law of sacrificial worship being lifted from the people. The elect had faith and hoped for this just as Abraham did. Keep in mind that Paul is actually communicating to Timothy these things, and Timothy is reading them and acting upon them.

Quote:
God not only chooses those who will be saved, but has also chosen believers to be the instruments for bringing His people to salvation.
I don't disagree with that necessarily, however.. it is not really just anyone that is spoken of in the bible. It is a specific people and although I think people CAN bring other people to the KNOWLEDGE of salvation... it is also possible that there is no need.

Quote:
So are you saying also that only the first century Christians were part of the election only to preach the gospel or spread God's word as well? If you believe that, then I guess the preaching work of modern day Christians has absolutely nothing to do with modern day Christians as well.
In Paul's day they were preaching and trying to avoid being killed. Saul was a major reason many of the elect died. Paul is preaching to specific people that there are more first fruits of the harvest. I believe he is talking about people that will not suffer in the city during the destruction of Jerusalem. He remains confident that what Christ said would happen.. would happen.

Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.(Acts 9:1)

But Christ says: "This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

There is no doubt that Paul was part of the elect or the first fruits.

Modern day Christianity is nothing like those first "elect" group chosen by Christ to spread the word. So preaching doesn't really have anything to do with modern day Christians in that sense but research and learning don't require preaching.

No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. (Heb. 8:11)

I hope that makes sense. I tried not to make it too lengthy.
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,497,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Sometimes June can't help but wonder why we humans make things so much more complex and complicated than need be. This is the second thread June's read this morning where she found herself thinking "Well, the answer can't be that difficult!" So June decided to once again ponder the simplicity in the words of the One who you all quote and reference. June's weighing in with the following, as it seemed to provide the best of all possible answers to her limited, little heathen mind:

"I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)

~What, June asks, could be simpler, and just how "elect" are little children?


Take gentle "what does June know?" care.
The "little children" are the ones who don't need to question and argue and stomp around. They are done rebelling. They are the ones that are used to bring others in.

The foolishness of the gospel is what saves.

We are supposed to believe, repent (turn around), be filled with the Spirit (love, joy peace, etc), and shine some light out there. We can't give into the world's ways and the wisdom of this world, because we are headed into an entirely different dimension where the ways of this present world no longer exist.

Those that are given ears to hear and eyes to see will follow their shepherd into the light. The elect are always used for a purpose, though. They were not elected just so they could sit on a fluffy cloud and watch all the heathen being tormented. The full harvest (things in heaven and earth) will be judged and brought into the light when the kingdom is delivered to God at last.
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,689,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
The "little children" are the ones who don't need to question and argue and stomp around. They are done rebelling. They are the ones that are used to bring others in.

The foolishness of the gospel is what saves.

We are supposed to believe, repent (turn around), be filled with the Spirit (love, joy peace, etc), and shine some light out there. We can't give into the world's ways and the wisdom of this world, because we are headed into an entirely different dimension where the ways of this present world no longer exist.

Those that are given ears to hear and eyes to see will follow their shepherd into the light. The elect are always used for a purpose, though. They were not elected just so they could sit on a fluffy cloud and watch all the heathen being tormented. The full harvest (things in heaven and earth) will be judged and brought into the light when the kingdom is delivered to God at last.
Here is a quote I really like:
“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”
by Marianne Williamson
from A Return To Love: Reflections on the Principles of A Course in Miracles.
(http://www.marianne.com/ - broken link)

Thought it appropriate here.
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:28 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,582,965 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Sometimes June can't help but wonder why we humans make things so much more complex and complicated than need be. This is the second thread June's read this morning where she found herself thinking "Well, the answer can't be that difficult!" So June decided to once again ponder the simplicity in the words of the One who you all quote and reference. June's weighing in with the following, as it seemed to provide the best of all possible answers to her limited, little heathen mind:

"I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)

~What, June asks, could be simpler, and just how "elect" are little children?


Take gentle "what does June know?" care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
The "little children" are the ones who don't need to question and argue and stomp around. They are done rebelling. They are the ones that are used to bring others in.

The foolishness of the gospel is what saves.

We are supposed to believe, repent (turn around), be filled with the Spirit (love, joy peace, etc), and shine some light out there. We can't give into the world's ways and the wisdom of this world, because we are headed into an entirely different dimension where the ways of this present world no longer exist.

Those that are given ears to hear and eyes to see will follow their shepherd into the light. The elect are always used for a purpose, though. They were not elected just so they could sit on a fluffy cloud and watch all the heathen being tormented. The full harvest (things in heaven and earth) will be judged and brought into the light when the kingdom is delivered to God at last.
Food for thought...
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,497,555 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Here is a quote I really like:
“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”
by Marianne Williamson
from A Return To Love: Reflections on the Principles of A Course in Miracles.
(http://www.marianne.com/ - broken link)

Thought it appropriate here.
Thank you for that, katjonjj.

Only, I believe as children we are to walk in our master's path. I'm not sure if that site is trying to tell us how to become servants. I really don't know. But I do know Christ came as a servant. Lowly. He wasn't scared of his power. He was here to show how the "powerless" can overcome the "powerful" in God's eyes. He showed us that his kingdom was nothing like this world. The rules are different. Many were looking for somebody powerful, but they were disappointed. Why did Jesus come here so weak? Why did he die? What purpose would that serve? Why didn't he overpower Rome and release physical captives? Maybe because he saw that releasing somebody physically does not mean one's spirit will be released.

This next paragraph is from the book, "Jesus for President": Jesus told the disciples that if they wanted to rule in his kingdom, they'd better get ready to wash feet and clean toilets. This king rules with a towel, not a sword. In the kingdom of God, we DESCEND into greatness.

I certainly don't want anybody to get the wrong idea. We don't need to walk around timid and fearful. Not at all. That does not serve a purpose, either, except to make you a perfect target for predators. I just don't think that we all have THE light in us. We have light AROUND us, but until we put ourselves on the back burner, we will not be spreading something beyond us out into the darkness. Christ is the only light that can truly shatter our rebellion and bring us to our senses. Very few even know what that light is. And when people do see it they usually run.

I believe Jesus said that when the lawless one appears he appears in his own name. Jesus came not in his own name but in His fathers. Not MY will but thine. We HAVE to become smaller and smaller to fill up with Him. That makes for a very humble experience.

If we were given a gift, we should use that to glorify a kingdom not of this world. If people are praising us, they are not looking up. While I enjoy the praise of others I sometimes feel uncomfortable. When you are praised you usually need that praise to continue, so you start selling out to receive more and more. Pretty soon your worth revolves around how many people praise and accept you. That can be a frightening scenario.

I am glad that I was given so many gifts, though. I didn't used to be glad. I remember all the filthy rags sermons. If you grow up feeling very small with little worth, then the sermons of old can kill what little spirit you had. On the other hand, the swing of the modern church into "I am a princess" mode seem a little silly, and foolish. When we check our worth against the world, well, the world is fickle. That's probably not a good idea. Checking our worth in our Father's eyes is a better idea. Our we the world's greatest? Do we need to act like we are? Nah. Just a kid in our Father's wild kingdom, easily torn to shreds when we walk off into ourselves (sometimes without even knowing that we have been torn). We should understand that we are not "there" just yet, and keep our pride on the down low. Otherwise, falling down is highly probable.

Entering the Kingdom of God is a sobering and awe-inspiring experience.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-11-2010 at 09:29 PM..
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 866,263 times
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When you see the variously titled illicit elite priest caste servicing their non-participatory congregants, a sort of closed loop, you can know it is the cage of Mystical Babylon. Don't mistake professionals in the religious bureachracy for God's chosen among the other "faithful." There are only those in whom Christ is risen and those in whom He is crucified. Each of us is more or less advanced on one of two paths into God, life or destruction. His purpose is to, "...gather together in one all things in Christ..." (Eph 1:10)

God's people are the priests to the rest of the world.

God proves who His chosen are by giving them the Holy Spirit.

"...He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world..." (Eph 1:4) If, from a pile of oranges at the market, I "choose" some to take home with me, I leave most of them in the market.

"...out of Him and through Him and into Him is all: to Him be the glory into the eons! Amen!" (Rom 11:36)

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 07-11-2010 at 09:22 PM..
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 866,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
you are taking that out of context...notice Paul uses the word 'many' most of the time...
This just isn't one of those times is it? God clearly says ALL. You might read it until you believe it:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18)

Meaning is by what is actually said. You would benefit from examining how the apostles took passages from Hebrew Scriptures out of context. Appealing to an hypothetical "context" is often how direct statements in God's Word are made to none effect in our lives. Jesus points this out concerning the leaders of orthodoxy in the Church of His day, "...invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you give over. And many such like things you are doing." (Mk 7:13)

Elsewhere in chapter 5 of Romans the use of "many" refers to either "everybody but Jesus" or, "everybody but Adam."

This is important to the subject of the "elect," meaning "chosen," which cartoon Christianity has attempted to dupe the world into believing refers only to an elite few who are "saved" while the bulk of humanity is viewed as "damned," (an unscriptural word.) Yes, not everyone has yet entered the working out of their own salvation; but, this is an ongoing process. It is being worked out in the eons, "..each man in his own order." (1 Co 15)

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 07-11-2010 at 11:02 PM..
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