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I am not sure, TBO. Was the fruit they bore in line with Christian, or rather, Christ? Then the answer would speak for itself. I know many were killed, over a city. I know many are killed today, over cities. Or ideologies, or theologies.
Are they bearing fruit in accordance to Christ and His teachings?
Then that says it all.
Was Moses saved? did he not also kill in Gods name?
Did Moses not bare fruit?
Your beleif brother puts everyone in destruction except Jesus.
I beleive Moses was a man of God yet he screwed up just like many do, because he viewed God as being capable of both evil and good.
What about David a man after Gods own heart, yet he to killed.
Is killing a fruit of the spirit?
Not after the flesh it isn't.
People simply misunderstand God and have done atrocities in His name, then built a religion around those atrocities, blaming it all on God.
Eternal torment and annihilation are those religions.
For both beleive it is ok for God to torment eternally people and to annihilate people.
So tell me brother in all the fruits of the Spirit spoken of in scripture where does it say it is ok to torment and annihilate?
According to your understanding even God could not be saved.
Was Moses saved? did he not also kill in Gods name?
Did Moses not bare fruit?
Yes he did. Perhaps this is why there was a contention for him. Who knows, but God alone. i personally believe he was saved, THROUGH faith.
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Your beleif brother puts everyone in destruction except Jesus.
Everyone is. Only THOUGH Jesus can one be saved out of destruction. We differ because you believe this can happen also AFTER death of the flesh. i do not, for those who had any faith.
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I beleive Moses was a man of God yet he screwed up just like many do, because he viewed God as being capable of both evil and good.
Irrelevant.
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What about David a man after Gods own heart, yet he to killed.
God knew David's heart.
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Is killing a fruit of the spirit?
David repented of this evil act.
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Not after the flesh it isn't.
Agreed.
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People simply misunderstand God and have done atrocities in His name, then built a religion around those atrocities, blaming it all on God.
No, this i would disagree with you on. If you follow man, and his interpretation of scripture, then, yes atrocities are committed, because evil men lead ignorant people astray. If a person seeks earnestly Jesus Christ, then they would NOT commit these acts, even if everyone around was.
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Eternal torment and annihilation are those religions.
Opinions vary.
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For both beleive it is ok for God to torment eternally people and to
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annihilate people.
Come down off the soapbox, and realize God is the POTTER, and, oh little mankind that we are, are the CLAY. He can and will do anything He sets out to do, whether or not you or I agree with it. His Word tells us what His precepts are. We either follow, or don't.
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So tell me brother in all the fruits of the Spirit spoken of in scripture where does it say it is ok to torment and annihilate?
Too many to list, TBO. It is from the front, to the back. And I personally disagree with ET, from what I have learned thus far, so quit lumping them together please.
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According to your understanding even God could not be saved.
According to my understanding, He wasn't. He died, and then was ressurected.
Unless, of course, you are talking about the Father, and not the Son. See, the Son is my God as well.
In which case, He(Father) cannot die, for He is the Creator.
The Creator is not subject to the laws of creation.
He is above it, and has to be.
This is why we cannot question the motives, or decisions.
They are His, alone, unless He gives us understanding.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal LIFE."
IOW, they WILL NOT DIE, which is LIFE.
"eternal" ? it is aionian which is perpetual life -- the life does not cease or have an interruption and those that have that enduring life will not be hurt of the the second death ... my understanding is that the second death is still death - Jesus is the resurrection and life
The inconsistency I see with both ET and annihilation is that they seem to be both only part of Gods plan
ET sees that all are raised but there are some raised in a incorruptible body that is somehow still corrupt and stays in that state eternally - it seems to be a state of eternal corruption
The other is that either resurrection for all who ever lived is denied or some of those that are resurrected then die again - It seems to deny what resurrection is --- which is Jesus
In Adam ----- all (everyone) dies
In Christ --- all everyone will be made alive
what links the 2 is judgment
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
This verse I suspect has a meaning of a lot more than just the symbol of communion with crackers and juice
"eternal" ? it is aionian which is perpetual life -- the life does not cease or have an interruption and those that have that enduring life will not be hurt of the the second death
If you had enduring life, there would be NO second death. It is a contradiction. This is why if a name is NOT in the Book of Life, they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. And the reason death and hades are also thrown in there, because death is to be no more. No more death, no more chances.
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... my understanding is that the second death is still death - Jesus is the resurrection and life
How can it be death, when death is in there as well? This is why the theory of UR falls apart, because in order for it to be truth, there MUST be a way OUT of the LOF. Show me.
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The inconsistency I see with both ET and annihilation is that they seem to be both only part of Gods plan
Again, the lumping.
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ET sees that all are raised but there are some raised in a incorruptible body that is somehow still corrupt and stays in that state eternally - it seems to be a state of eternal corruption
Which I also disagree with.
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The other is that either resurrection for all who ever lived is denied or some of those that are resurrected then die again - It seems to deny what resurrection is --- which is Jesus
You don't seem to understand.
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In Adam ----- all (everyone) dies
In Christ --- all everyone will be made alive
Because? Read Genesis.
what links the 2 is judgment
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1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
This verse I suspect has a meaning of a lot more than just the symbol of communion with crackers and juice
How is the world condemned, if the world is saved? Interesting verse there.
If Hitler wings it, surely Satan's not too far behind.
When UR'll come to a unanimous decision on which of UR'll's perspective of UR is correct, let us know!!
FUR US by US. nice.....
Reconciliation in the heavens. Don't leave out scripture.
By the way, Hitler was just following many sermons that talked about God's eternal torment given to unbelievers and liars. Luther's, for instance.
No matter what human beings do I shall some day stand before the judgment seat of the Eternal. I shall answer to Him, and I know he will judge me innocent.
-Rudolf Hess (in a statement to the Nuremberg Tribunal)
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
No, it's not and I say that as a person who is definitely not a fan of Luther. (Yes you'll see Wikipedia imply that mainstream historians agree the Nazis were following Luther's ideas, but Wikipedia is disproportionately atheist/agnostic and has no standing to declare what is the prevailing view among historians)
I don't get my info from Wikipedia. Have you ever read Mein Kampf?
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