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Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
That has nothing to do with "free will" my friend. What Jesus told the scribes and pharisees is that what Jesus Himself would have done for their congregation, they would not.
You been smokin' dat weed again?....LOL In all seriousness though, read Martin Luther's Bondage of the will that I referenced. It goes into all the issues that you and your Arminian brother Mike will bring up...
That has nothing to do with "free will" my friend. What Jesus told the scribes and pharisees is that what Jesus Himself would have done for their congregation, they would not.
You been smokin' dat weed again?....LOL In all seriousness though, read Martin Luther's Bondage of the will that I referenced. It goes into all the issues that you and your Arminian brother Mike will bring up...
Alabama,
It is clear my friend that you have no idea the truths behind either Calvinism or Arminianism. You have been skewed by the messages of universalism, that it has clouded your judgement on anything you approach when it comes to the word of God.
You apparently deny the fulfillment of Christ's work for the Law, the prophets and the psalms concerning Him, including the free will offering.
That is you "free willed choice," yet I behoove you, to reconsider.
It is clear my friend that you have no idea the truths behind either Calvinism or Arminianism. You have been skewed by the messages of universalism, that it has clouded your judgement on anything you approach when it comes to the word of God.
You apparently deny the fulfillment of Christ's work for the Law, the prophets and the psalms concerning Him, including the free will offering.
That is you "free willed choice," yet I behoove you, to reconsider.
Give me a break sciota.... I've quoted you the WCF (Presbyterian confession), and what Luther wrote concerning the bondage of the will (essentially the Lutheran Church's confession regarding this). Both are strongly Calvinistic and have also strongly resisted Arminian doctrines for the last few hundred years. But even those denominations are falling away from the truth. What you call Calvinism today is actually nothing but the rantings of the 17th century Arminians. In fact your ranting is so prevalent in the reformed Churches today, that most don't know what they believe doctrinally or where it even came from!
You need to stay off the weed my friend...LOL. We know when you've been out late on Friday night....
Arminianism: The system of doctrine known as Arminianism is heresy. (http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/Arminianism.htm - broken link)
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 08-21-2010 at 12:44 PM..
Reason: typo
Give me a break sciota.... I've quoted you the WCF (Presbyterian confession), and what Luther wrote concerning the bondage of the will (essentially the Lutheran Church's confession regarding this). Both are strongly Calvinistic and have also strongly resisted Arminian doctrines for the last few hundred years. But even those denominations are falling away from the truth. What you call Calvinism today is actually nothing but the rantings of the 17th century Arminians. In fact your ranting is so prevalent in the reformed Churches today, that most don't know what they believe doctrinally or where it even came from!
You need to stay of the weed my friend...LOL. We know when you've been out late on Friday night....
Arminianism: The system of doctrine known as Arminianism is heresy. (http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/Arminianism.htm - broken link)
Are you bearing false witness against me for smoking weed?
Better retract your statements. I am 4 yrs sober thank you very much.
I will quote it right back at you. It is obvious you have no clue as to what it is saying.
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.
I read the WCF, many times over, and it says nothing there of UR, that you seem to adhere to, so put up, or sit down and listen up.
I.God has endued (PROVIDED) the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil
MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.
ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,and dead in sin,is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses. JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved. 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
IV.When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.
COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
V.The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.
EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.
Take off the UR blinders. I suggest as we all suggest in AA meetings:
Stay silent, and listen. You might hear something constructive.
I find it real interesting that no universalist can come up with a sound exegetical rebuttal, instead they rely on pure assumptions and rhetoric, coupled with their failed hypothesis and ideologies. The Biblical truth wins every time.
Are you bearing false witness against me for smoking weed?
Better retract your statements. I am 4 yrs sober thank you very much.
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. I read the WCF, many times over, and it says nothing there of UR, that you seem to adhere to, so put up, or sit down and listen up.
I.God has endued (PROVIDED) the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil
MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.
ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,and dead in sin,is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses. JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved. 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
IV.When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.
COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
V.The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.
EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.
Take off the UR blinders. I suggest as we all suggest in AA meetings:
Stay silent, and listen. You might hear something constructive.
Well, I'm glad you're off the weed..LOL
However, this thread is not about the WCF and universalism. That topic we can discuss on another thread for another day. This topic is about Free Will, remember? Are you really sure you're off the weed...?...you still sound a little foggy...
The WCF, that you claim to believe in, states in Article III:
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
Do you believe this? If not, you should. I do. I think all biblical universalist's believe it too.
Your philosophy fails in light of the Biblical text.
A dog makes the choice because he is hungry!
Computers don't have a soul.
You can't fly to the moon because you don't have a spaceship.
Falure once again.
Why do you insist on Moderator cut: deleted one-liners like "Failure once again"? They don't actually help your case.
In fact you have proven my point. A dog chooses to eat because he is hungry, and a man chooses to seek out God because he is spiritually hungry. But neither the man or the dog can control when they get hungry.
The choice they make is influenced by external causes (hunger) - so much for free will...
However, this thread is not about the WCF and universalism. That topic we can discuss on another thread for another day. This topic is about Free Will, remember? Are you really sure you're off the weed...?...you still sound a little foggy...
The WCF, that you claim to believe in, states in Article III:
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
Do you believe this? If not, you should. I do. I think all biblical universalist's believe it too.
Indeed. If natural man is not able to do good, then HE DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL. He is not free to choose to do good. He is not even free to choose to come to Christ. He can only do that once God has drawn him and enabled Him to come to Christ (John 6:44, 6:65).
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. I've quoted you the WCF (Presbyterian confession), and what Luther wrote concerning the bondage of the will (essentially the Lutheran Church's confession regarding this). Both are strongly Calvinistic and have also strongly resisted Arminian doctrines for the last few hundred years. But even those denominations are falling away from the truth. What you call Calvinism today is actually nothing but the rantings of the 17th century Arminians. In fact your ranting is so prevalent in the reformed Churches today, that most don't know what they believe doctrinally or where it even came from!
. 