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As many of you know, my FIL was struggling with lung cancer and was given 3 months to live (see thread by that name). He has since passed away and at his memorial service the preacher seemed more interested in "storing up treasure" of his own by winning converts than celebrating the life of my FIL.
However, I am ultra sensitive to the peddling of Christianity as I call it so I wasn't really surprised and kept it to myself.
After the service/altar call, we went downstairs for fellowship and food. At that point the pastor made several remarks to known unbelievers about salvation which they countered easily by leaving. He is certainly persistent and passionate about what he believes will be the fate of unbelievers in a fiery hell if nothing else.
Finally it was my turn. He approached me and asked quite nonchalantly where my husband and I went to church. I replied that we used to attend but that we don't anymore. Partly because it was a strain on our family to get our small children ready in the morning and partly because I have changed my views of Christianity which is awkward in a church setting.
He was flabbergasted to say the least. Apparently he is used to being lied to or something! He then asked how my beliefs had changed and why... UH OH... I had two choices.... tell the truth about what I believe and suffer the black-sheep label or lie (sugar coat it at least) and move on as I hope never to attend another memorial with him...
I chose to tell him the truth. I said that I was a believer in universal salvation. That God intended for all men to come to the knowledge of him. That all men are saved.
The look on his face was incredible! We exchanged verses and he told me a story of the natives he saw in other countries and how they had no knowledge of the (christian) God... so how could they possibly be saved..... I said there is a difference in how I see people and how he sees people... I see them as already saved but without the realization of that salvation. He sees them as tainted and in need of salvation.
I asked him to tell me how God sees them. He said that they need to repent and give their lives to God through Christ. I agreed that they would indeed benefit from that but what part of that confession of belief affects how God sees them?
He said that God is like a parent, in that he cannot overlook sin and you must follow the procedure for salvation (my words not his actual words).
I said that if God is like a human parent then we are all in big trouble. God is nothing like a human parent IMO....
Well... it was a great conversation and I was called away for family pictures (which was weird because they didn't really need my pic....) and he followed me for a bit trying to resume the conversation. When he couldn't get my attention because I was busy with others.. he went to my husband...
Here is the funny part...
He talked to my husband about me... he suggested a book on how to be the leader in the family... he was basically telling my husband that I was leading us all to hell, IMO.
Ezekiel 33
[1] Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[2] Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
[3] If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
[4] Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
[5] He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
[6] But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
[7] So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
[8] When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
[9] Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
[10] Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
Personally, I think a memorial service should be a time to honor and remember the person who died. I think the service should reflect them - not be used as a time sell any particular brand of religion. If the person who passed was very religious - then a very religious service would be understandable. But it should always be about the person who passed - not about converting the audience.
As many of you know, my FIL was struggling with lung cancer and was given 3 months to live (see thread by that name). He has since passed away and at his memorial service the preacher seemed more interested in "storing up treasure" of his own by winning converts than celebrating the life of my FIL.
However, I am ultra sensitive to the peddling of Christianity as I call it so I wasn't really surprised and kept it to myself.
After the service/altar call, we went downstairs for fellowship and food. At that point the pastor made several remarks to known unbelievers about salvation which they countered easily by leaving. He is certainly persistent and passionate about what he believes will be the fate of unbelievers in a fiery hell if nothing else.
Finally it was my turn. He approached me and asked quite nonchalantly where my husband and I went to church. I replied that we used to attend but that we don't anymore. Partly because it was a strain on our family to get our small children ready in the morning and partly because I have changed my views of Christianity which is awkward in a church setting.
He was flabbergasted to say the least. Apparently he is used to being lied to or something! He then asked how my beliefs had changed and why... UH OH... I had two choices.... tell the truth about what I believe and suffer the black-sheep label or lie (sugar coat it at least) and move on as I hope never to attend another memorial with him...
I chose to tell him the truth. I said that I was a believer in universal salvation. That God intended for all men to come to the knowledge of him. That all men are saved.
The look on his face was incredible! We exchanged verses and he told me a story of the natives he saw in other countries and how they had no knowledge of the (christian) God... so how could they possibly be saved..... I said there is a difference in how I see people and how he sees people... I see them as already saved but without the realization of that salvation. He sees them as tainted and in need of salvation.
I asked him to tell me how God sees them. He said that they need to repent and give their lives to God through Christ. I agreed that they would indeed benefit from that but what part of that confession of belief affects how God sees them?
He said that God is like a parent, in that he cannot overlook sin and you must follow the procedure for salvation (my words not his actual words).
I said that if God is like a human parent then we are all in big trouble. God is nothing like a human parent IMO....
Well... it was a great conversation and I was called away for family pictures (which was weird because they didn't really need my pic....) and he followed me for a bit trying to resume the conversation. When he couldn't get my attention because I was busy with others.. he went to my husband...
Here is the funny part...
He talked to my husband about me... he suggested a book on how to be the leader in the family... he was basically telling my husband that I was leading us all to hell, IMO.
Any thoughts?
Yeah, that Guy was way out of line. It was a funeral, and you were there to celebrate the life of your FIL and mourn his death, not to convert others to his understanding. It just goes to show how proud and irreverent and insensitive some people are, using fear tactics to manipulate others at such an inappropriate time. But that is what you get when a person is so badly brainwashed that they believe it is their responsibility to save the souls of others. He thought he was earning Browne points with God.
A question ... Was your FIL a "born a gain Christian"? If not then his words were even more out of line ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-26-2010 at 12:53 PM..
As many of you know, my FIL was struggling with lung cancer and was given 3 months to live (see thread by that name). He has since passed away and at his memorial service the preacher seemed more interested in "storing up treasure" of his own by winning converts than celebrating the life of my FIL.
However, I am ultra sensitive to the peddling of Christianity as I call it so I wasn't really surprised and kept it to myself.
After the service/altar call, we went downstairs for fellowship and food. At that point the pastor made several remarks to known unbelievers about salvation which they countered easily by leaving. He is certainly persistent and passionate about what he believes will be the fate of unbelievers in a fiery hell if nothing else.
Finally it was my turn. He approached me and asked quite nonchalantly where my husband and I went to church. I replied that we used to attend but that we don't anymore. Partly because it was a strain on our family to get our small children ready in the morning and partly because I have changed my views of Christianity which is awkward in a church setting.
He was flabbergasted to say the least. Apparently he is used to being lied to or something! He then asked how my beliefs had changed and why... UH OH... I had two choices.... tell the truth about what I believe and suffer the black-sheep label or lie (sugar coat it at least) and move on as I hope never to attend another memorial with him...
I chose to tell him the truth. I said that I was a believer in universal salvation. That God intended for all men to come to the knowledge of him. That all men are saved.
The look on his face was incredible! We exchanged verses and he told me a story of the natives he saw in other countries and how they had no knowledge of the (christian) God... so how could they possibly be saved..... I said there is a difference in how I see people and how he sees people... I see them as already saved but without the realization of that salvation. He sees them as tainted and in need of salvation.
I asked him to tell me how God sees them. He said that they need to repent and give their lives to God through Christ. I agreed that they would indeed benefit from that but what part of that confession of belief affects how God sees them?
He said that God is like a parent, in that he cannot overlook sin and you must follow the procedure for salvation (my words not his actual words).
I said that if God is like a human parent then we are all in big trouble. God is nothing like a human parent IMO....
Well... it was a great conversation and I was called away for family pictures (which was weird because they didn't really need my pic....) and he followed me for a bit trying to resume the conversation. When he couldn't get my attention because I was busy with others.. he went to my husband...
Here is the funny part...
He talked to my husband about me... he suggested a book on how to be the leader in the family... he was basically telling my husband that I was leading us all to hell, IMO.
Any thoughts?
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall during your conversation . . . though his reaction is quite predictable and in line with what we see here every day from those indoctrinated in the "precepts and doctrines of men." While it is a more civilized and evolved reaction . . . its non-intellectual impetus is no different from the ones that perpetuated fear of demons and witches . . . resulting in burnings at the stake. The superstition and primitive ignorance that pervades the mainstream ET'ers beliefs is legion. I hope your connection with the social milieu that surrounds his religious circle will not produce any repercussions . . akin to social "burnings at the stake" in modern civilized terms.
Hi Kat. It's nice to "see" you again. I've never been to a memorial service with hellfire being preached but that's because I've never been to a memorial service of a non-Christian with a Christian preacher. I'm sorry for your loss.
As many of you know, my FIL was struggling with lung cancer and was given 3 months to live (see thread by that name). He has since passed away and at his memorial service the preacher seemed more interested in "storing up treasure" of his own by winning converts than celebrating the life of my FIL.
However, I am ultra sensitive to the peddling of Christianity as I call it so I wasn't really surprised and kept it to myself.
After the service/altar call, we went downstairs for fellowship and food. At that point the pastor made several remarks to known unbelievers about salvation which they countered easily by leaving. He is certainly persistent and passionate about what he believes will be the fate of unbelievers in a fiery hell if nothing else.
Finally it was my turn. He approached me and asked quite nonchalantly where my husband and I went to church. I replied that we used to attend but that we don't anymore. Partly because it was a strain on our family to get our small children ready in the morning and partly because I have changed my views of Christianity which is awkward in a church setting.
He was flabbergasted to say the least. Apparently he is used to being lied to or something! He then asked how my beliefs had changed and why... UH OH... I had two choices.... tell the truth about what I believe and suffer the black-sheep label or lie (sugar coat it at least) and move on as I hope never to attend another memorial with him...
I chose to tell him the truth. I said that I was a believer in universal salvation. That God intended for all men to come to the knowledge of him. That all men are saved.
The look on his face was incredible! We exchanged verses and he told me a story of the natives he saw in other countries and how they had no knowledge of the (christian) God... so how could they possibly be saved..... I said there is a difference in how I see people and how he sees people... I see them as already saved but without the realization of that salvation. He sees them as tainted and in need of salvation.
I asked him to tell me how God sees them. He said that they need to repent and give their lives to God through Christ. I agreed that they would indeed benefit from that but what part of that confession of belief affects how God sees them?
He said that God is like a parent, in that he cannot overlook sin and you must follow the procedure for salvation (my words not his actual words).
I said that if God is like a human parent then we are all in big trouble. God is nothing like a human parent IMO....
Well... it was a great conversation and I was called away for family pictures (which was weird because they didn't really need my pic....) and he followed me for a bit trying to resume the conversation. When he couldn't get my attention because I was busy with others.. he went to my husband...
Here is the funny part...
He talked to my husband about me... he suggested a book on how to be the leader in the family... he was basically telling my husband that I was leading us all to hell, IMO.
Any thoughts?
I'm really sorry about your FIL Kat, and that the funeral turned into a conversion free-for-all by the Minister. The whole story upset me so I can imagine how it made you feel. I'm just waiting for the day that this happens to me and what I would say....I have yet to have a conversation about universalism with anyone and I imagine the reaction would be the same as what you got. So far I've been perfectly happy knowing the real truth about salvation for all and I don't feel the need to shove it down people's throats like I felt the need to push ET and the impending doom for those who haven't accepted Christ as Savior. What a difference.
Ezekiel 33
[1] Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[2] Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
[3] If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
[4] Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
[5] He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
[6] But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
[7] So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
[8] When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
[9] Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
[10] Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
Ezekiel's thoughts about Israel? I don't understand what you are getting at...
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While it is a more civilized and evolved reaction . . . its non-intellectual impetus is no different from the ones that perpetuated fear of demons and witches . . . resulting in burnings at the stake. The superstition and primitive ignorance that pervades the mainstream ET'ers beliefs is legion. I hope your connection with the social milieu that surrounds his religious circle will not produce any repercussions . . akin to social "burnings at the stake" in modern civilized terms.
