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Btw I'm not a Universalist nor am I defending it per se, I favour Conditionalism, but I've found eternal torment pretty incompatible with Love...
The truth is ``Would you marry a person who rejected you and ignored you and even hated you?..... well thats what Lords plan .... He would not either. Problem is The Lord of Life puts before us life and death, and if you marry the Lord then Life will be yours, because the Lord of Life is True God, wherfor if you reject the True Lord God and run after the spirit that bring death that he will be your god like it or not. and the True Lord God decided that the spirit that bring death is rejected from Heaven and NO mercy or purpose is given to these spirit and those spirit of dead people who follow this spirit that brings death........
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,081,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Answers in order of your questions...starting with the OP question
Yes.
1. Unbelief in God is always the fault of human
2. To describe God as "ET" God is an accusatory, spiteful and asserting evil upon God
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No. It would be better for Universalist to believe what is written, how it's written .... and focus on God's grace toward them, not what seems to be unfair, unjust by their standards
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It becomes the Satanic lie when anyone accuses God of being evil, unfair, unjust, not loving, offering salvation beyond what God does, impose their Terms of Salvation (TOS) upon God.
It becomes the Satanic lie when human use reason over scripture.
The Bible teaches
1. salvation is belief in Jesus by faith not works prior to death
2. God holds unbelief accountable by damning the unbeliever after death.
3. Salvation becomes ours now, immediatly at conversion
4. The judgement "stands condemned already" for unbelievers is now and is removed immediatly upon conversion ... free of cost
5. Hell has to be eternal if heaven is eternal
Yes, it's clearly revealed. However to use human deduction \ reasoning instead of believing what is written how it's written will produce incorrect conclusions.
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In their hearts couldn't what?
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For the unbeliever to trust in Universalism is the equilivant to totally not trusting God. Universalism is the "forbidden fruit" of our time..where the Devil says "Did God really say"...unbelief and unbelievers will be damned forever?
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The focus of your question seems that much of your scenerios on that there isn't a little of "decision theology" going on in the background.
But simply, a unbeliever can be decieved for several reasons.
Their own wanton rejection of the truth
Because of their persistance, God makes it impossible to believe.
God listens. If a unbeliever persists, that isn't God's fault.
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"Resist the devil and he will flee from you"
Answer YES!! when Satan asks "Did God really say" ...
Is God really serious about sin and unbelief
that " his wrath remains" upon the unbelievers
"Warn them before God against quarreling about words it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen." ( words like eternal damnation, condemnation ect.)
"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground."
That you can refuse to repent........
O LORD, do not your eyes look for truth? You struck them, but they felt no pain; you crushed them, but they refused correction. They made their faces harder than stone and refused to repent.
Answer NO!! when Satan whats you to believe yes to this:
"Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent?"
I didn't make any moral judgements about God in my post, I was merely stating a fact. The fact and truth you believe in, the fact of your theology, is that God is a God who will torment unbelievers for eternity. You say to describe God as the 'ET God' is somehow 'asserting evil' on him? Why, because you believe ET is evil? As I said, merely stating a fact, and you have no right to say who or what is 'asserting evil' upon God without a proper basis for it.
The fact this has led many to Universalism - not because they were swayed by some charismatic cult leader, but they were pushed by their own beliefs and their own moral convictions. I never said that their moral convictions were more lofty than God's, I merely said that these were people who earnestly DID seek the truth; they didn't reject it outright or start out by mocking God. I've already said I don't accept Universalism because I don't think the Bible teaches it, but I believe the Bible supports Conditionalism (although I'm not going to debate that here) but I'm not going out dogmatically to say it's 110% the truth.
Anyway, I'm talking about people who say, for example, try to force themselves to accept that 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust will suffer ceaseless agony forever and ever. And don't make any excuses that God will 'look into their hearts' when Christ clearly said he is the only way. God will not give Anne Frank a free pass out of the lake of burning fire and brimstone. So what you're saying is it's that person's fault for being evil for attributing evil to God for not being able to stomach this. Not accepting the suffering of millions of Jews is somehow because they have a hardness of heart and don't really have the 'spirit.' Only spirit filled believers can look upon God's righteous punishment and agree that that's right. Who knows that MAY be true, but again my question was whether you think it's the FAULT of the unbeliever rather than the fault of the doctrine, and you obviously agree that it is.
It is every persons personal responsibility to be oriented to the truth. God is truth and He has revealed the truth in His written word, so that everyone who rejects the truth is without excuse. God has revealed clearly that those who die without Christ will spend eternity in the lake of fire. But it is their own fault that they end up there. God has done all that He can do without compromising His character to provide salvation for man. All who refuse to come to God through faith in Christ remain under eternal condemnation and God CANNOT allow them to enter into an eternal relationship with Him because they chose not to come to Him by means of the only way that He could provide. Through the substitutional death of Christ on the Cross. Man owes God perfect righteousness. He cannot meet that requirement. Jesus did meet that requirement. By rejecting Christ as Savior, a person chooses to stand on their own relative righteousness and therefore is eternally condemned to the lake of fire. God CANNOT be other than who and what He is. He must be true to Himself. To His perfection. If a person places their faith in Christ for salvation, then God imputes His very own perfect righteousness to that person so that he can have an eternal relationship with God. By rejecting Christ, he rejects God's righteousness and relies on his own righteousness to his own destruction.
God is not the cause of the unbelievers eternal suffering. It is strictly the fault of the unbeliever that he ends up in the lake of fire.
Now, love for God is not an emotion. It is a mental attitude. No believer can love God apart from spiritual growth. You don't love God because you think you do, or say you do. You love God when you obey Him by growing up spiritually through learning and applying Bible doctrine under the filling ministry of God the Holy Spirit. It is your responsibility and yours alone to orient yourself to the truth. To orient yourself to reality. Many who cannot accept the truth retreat into that Satanic lie of universalism to avoid having to face reality.
The Bible does not teach universalism and it does not teach annihilation. It clearly states that those who die having rejected Christ as Savior will spend eternity in conscious torment in the lake of fire. Will you face reality or will you deny it? The choice is yours.
"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not." (Lamentations 3:22)
Well, Mikey, five, fifty-five the Good News is, "He is merciful, and compassionate."
I am sorry, for me, the math just doesn't work out; legalistic bookkeeping.
If you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.
"To be double minded is an act or instance of hypocrisy."
"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not." (Lamentations 3:22)
Well, Mikey, five, fifty-five the Good News is, "He is merciful, and compassionate."
I am sorry, for me, the math just doesn't work out; legalistic bookkeeping.
If you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.
"To be double minded is an act or instance of hypocrisy."
An act or instance of hypocrisy is a pretense of having a virtuous character; moral or religious beliefs, and principles that one does not really possess.
Greek hypókrisis, is play acting, equivalent to hypokrī́ (nesthai), as in playing a part. But the question is; which part is one playing, for many are merely adversarial.
I didn't make any moral judgements about God in my post, I was merely stating a fact. The fact and truth you believe in, the fact of your theology, is that God is a God who will torment unbelievers for eternity. You say to describe God as the 'ET God' is somehow 'asserting evil' on him? Why, because you believe ET is evil? As I said, merely stating a fact, and you have no right to say who or what is 'asserting evil' upon God without a proper basis for it.
The fact this has led many to Universalism - not because they were swayed by some charismatic cult leader, but they were pushed by their own beliefs and their own moral convictions. I never said that their moral convictions were more lofty than God's, I merely said that these were people who earnestly DID seek the truth; they didn't reject it outright or start out by mocking God. I've already said I don't accept Universalism because I don't think the Bible teaches it, but I believe the Bible supports Conditionalism (although I'm not going to debate that here) but I'm not going out dogmatically to say it's 110% the truth.
Anyway, I'm talking about people who say, for example, try to force themselves to accept that 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust will suffer ceaseless agony forever and ever. And don't make any excuses that God will 'look into their hearts' when Christ clearly said he is the only way. God will not give Anne Frank a free pass out of the lake of burning fire and brimstone. So what you're saying is it's that person's fault for being evil for attributing evil to God for not being able to stomach this. Not accepting the suffering of millions of Jews is somehow because they have a hardness of heart and don't really have the 'spirit.' Only spirit filled believers can look upon God's righteous punishment and agree that that's right. Who knows that MAY be true, but again my question was whether you think it's the FAULT of the unbeliever rather than the fault of the doctrine, and you obviously agree that it is.
Even though I believe what scriptures teach that God will damn unbelievers eternally in hell for unbelief, doesn't means that I describe him as a ET God.
You maybe are the exception. But around here when that is used to describe God (ET God) normally isn't done so in complementary terms. That description (normally) indicates that on some issue a person has, deems it unfair.
Circumstances of how one dies doesn't determine eternity, faith or the lack of does.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,081,790 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Even though I believe what scriptures teach that God will damn unbelievers eternally in hell for unbelief, doesn't means that I describe him as a ET God.
You maybe are the exception. But around here when that is used to describe God (ET God) normally isn't done so in complementary terms. That description (normally) indicates that on some issue a person has, deems it unfair.
Circumstances of how one dies doesn't determine eternity, faith or the lack of does.
I guess it was just a short-hand way of saying the God who will punish with eternal torment. But yes, I know how it's used by some in a very loaded fashion. I don't go as far to call God who would use ET as a sadistic monster, or begin to revile him, but sometimes the opposite of love isn't always hate. It may just be you find it hard to love or even like someone because of how mind-bogglingly harsh they are. Like the way it's hard to love somebody who kills alot of people, or puts them in human shredders, same deal, really. By this I'm not equating God all round with Saddam, because I'd imagine even if God did decree ET he'd be more noble in some areas than Saddam.
I guess the least I hope is that some will at least try to examine their beliefs in an honest way. Now I wish Universalism was true, but I don't think you can really deny the finality of God's judgement. But does that mean his judgement must be infinitely harsh/cruel? People like us - Conditionalists, Universalists etc - don't find ET hard to accept because it doesn't gel with our 'humanistic' worldviews, or because we simply find it distasteful. It cuts at our very core/souls; yes, even after we've heard all the arguments explaining or justifying it, something inside us rebels against it. On one hand, Jesus tells us to love our neighbour etc, and this fills us with love and hope. Yet on the other, we're taught of burning forever and crying out for no mercy, the fewness of the saved, and that deeply, deeply disturbs us. We quite understandably feel that 'just accepting it' IS a type of hardening of our hearts, and it makes us feel dishonest to who we are. Yes, we realise we're limited human beings in comparison to God, yet we also feel cruelty should not be something that we just can't understand.
II guess the least I hope is that some will at least try to examine their beliefs in an honest way. Now I wish Universalism was true, but I don't think you can really deny the finality of God's judgement.
The death of death. ALL of creation will one day be free.
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