If someone couldn't love the ET God, would it be their fault? (church, believe)
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I didn't make any moral judgements about God in my post, I was merely stating a fact. The fact and truth you believe in, the fact of your theology, is that God is a God who will torment unbelievers for eternity. You say to describe God as the 'ET God' is somehow 'asserting evil' on him? Why, because you believe ET is evil? As I said, merely stating a fact, and you have no right to say who or what is 'asserting evil' upon God without a proper basis for it.
The fact this has led many to Universalism - not because they were swayed by some charismatic cult leader, but they were pushed by their own beliefs and their own moral convictions. I never said that their moral convictions were more lofty than God's, I merely said that these were people who earnestly DID seek the truth; they didn't reject it outright or start out by mocking God. I've already said I don't accept Universalism because I don't think the Bible teaches it, but I believe the Bible supports Conditionalism (although I'm not going to debate that here) but I'm not going out dogmatically to say it's 110% the truth.
Anyway, I'm talking about people who say, for example, try to force themselves to accept that 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust will suffer ceaseless agony forever and ever. And don't make any excuses that God will 'look into their hearts' when Christ clearly said he is the only way. God will not give Anne Frank a free pass out of the lake of burning fire and brimstone. So what you're saying is it's that person's fault for being evil for attributing evil to God for not being able to stomach this. Not accepting the suffering of millions of Jews is somehow because they have a hardness of heart and don't really have the 'spirit.' Only spirit filled believers can look upon God's righteous punishment and agree that that's right. Who knows that MAY be true, but again my question was whether you think it's the FAULT of the unbeliever rather than the fault of the doctrine, and you obviously agree that it is.
I sense that you know in your heart that Universal redemption of humanity is the only sane way to view God. Anne Frank in the lake of fire forever - nope, I don't believe any such thing. Nor do I believe the lake of fire is everlasting.
Just thought I'd say so since I was passing by. I haven't been looking in much for a while, but I see we are on the same topic in a number of threads as we were months ago. The level of fear in this world is very thick. Never trust fear -- follow goodness and mercy.
What if someone earnestly wanted to believe in God and his promise through Christ. They believed in all the doctrine, lived a godly, moral life, and put the Lord first, but at the end of the day, found they simply could not love God because God caused his/her fellow humans so much pain in the afterlife. Jesus commanded us to love the Lord, but what if they simply could not, as a growing number couldn't? Wouldn't it be better for them to become a Universalist? Or would that be a Satanic lie just as bad as being an atheist/heathen? In that case, is it simply the person's fault for someone not 'understanding' God's justice, or not trusting in his sovereignty enough. What if said person tried and tried, trusted and trusted, but in their heart of hearts couldn't? Is Universalism any worse than them totally rejecting God? Even if they are deceived, wouldn't it be better to still strive to be part of God instead of Satan/the World? How would you suggest that person someone 'get over' their 'softy humanistic moral hangup?'
Btw I'm not a Universalist nor am I defending it per se, I favour Conditionalism, but I've found eternal torment pretty incompatible with Love...
Why must the pendulum swing so far in the opposite direction? From ET to UR? What about ER(eternal rest)?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
Why must the pendulum swing so far in the opposite direction? From ET to UR? What about ER(eternal rest)?
Yeah UR can be a backlash to ET, sometimes by people who aren't even aware of CI (lot of abbreviations here, lol, it's like some code). It's funny ET'ers see CI as 'too soft' and pretty much the 'atheist' view of death while UR'ers see it as too harsh. It's probably makes the most sense, in a way, although even if say, only 10% made it and the rest were destroyed that'd still be sad. You'd never see your close family members again, so it'd be like as if there was no heaven/hell etc.
Right here is the root of the error in traditional eternal torment theology. It shows the hypocrisy therein.
Because: if you say it is your fault you don't believe, you are also saying it is your credit that you do believe.
Yet there is nothing we can take credit in for our salvation. Nothing at all, not even our faith or belief.
God grants belief (Phil 1:29).
God gives faith (Eph 2:8, Rom 12:3).
God leads repentance (Rom 2:4, 2 Tim 2:25).
God draws men to Christ (John 6:44).
God enables men to come to Christ (John 6:65).
It is all of God. Say it with me: SALVATION IS A COMPLETE WORK OF GOD.
Do you deny it?
So considering it is God who grants belief, gives faith, leads men to repent, draws them to Christ, and enables them to do it - if those things have not yet happened in a man's life so that they can believe in God - who is the responsible party here?
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Right here is the root of the error in traditional eternal torment theology. It shows the hypocrisy therein.
Because: if you say it is your fault you don't believe, you are also saying it is your credit that you do believe.
Yet there is nothing we can take credit in for our salvation. Nothing at all, not even our faith or belief.
God grants belief (Phil 1:29).
God gives faith (Eph 2:8, Rom 12:3).
God leads repentance (Rom 2:4, 2 Tim 2:25).
God draws men to Christ (John 6:44).
God enables men to come to Christ (John 6:65).
It is all of God. Say it with me: SALVATION IS A COMPLETE WORK OF GOD.
Do you deny it?
So considering it is God who grants belief, gives faith, leads men to repent, draws them to Christ, and enables them to do it - if those things have not yet happened in a man's life so that they can believe in God - who is the responsible party here?
Yeah, it seems if there's something bad: sin, unbelief.etc than it's human's fault, but if it's good, it's God's doing. Doesn't that make God a puppet master? Yes, he might not personally be the cause of evil in the world, but like he says in OT he has a purpose for it. If he created everything than indirectly Satan is acting out his will in terms of evil (like in Job). Nothing can be contrary to his will or he is not God. I believe in the Bible when it speaks of God's grief and regret it is more to do with him demonstrating something to humans.
Yeah, it seems if there's something bad: sin, unbelief.etc than it's human's fault, but if it's good, it's God's doing. Doesn't that make God a puppet master? Yes, he might not personally be the cause of evil in the world, but like he says in OT he has a purpose for it. If he created everything than indirectly Satan is acting out his will in terms of evil (like in Job). Nothing can be contrary to his will or he is not God. I believe in the Bible when it speaks of God's grief and regret it is more to do with him demonstrating something to humans.
It puts God in sovereign control of the universe. Satan cannot do anything without God's permission (Read the book of Job). So clearly Satan and evil and even sin serve a purpose in God's plan...
Do you believe God is in control? If God is in sovereign control of the universe, He must have a good reason for everything that is happening (including the bad stuff), right?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
It puts God in sovereign control of the universe. Satan cannot do anything without God's permission (Read the book of Job). So clearly Satan and evil and even sin serve a purpose in God's plan...
Do you believe God is in control? If God is in sovereign control of the universe, He must have a good reason for everything that is happening (including the bad stuff), right?
I find it interesting that quite a few religions do believe in Ultimate Reconciliation. I believe even in Zoroastrianism this was even a majority view, with the ET and Annihilationist views being in the majority. In a sense Buddhism is UR in that all eventually reach Nirvana, it just takes some longer than others. Religions where the wicked had no hope seemed to include the Greek religions, where the wicked would stay in Tartarus, a compartment of Hades, forever.
I suppose it boils down to the idea of God, doesn't it? God to us is mostly an idea and a character. An idea in that he's supposed to be omnipresent, omniscient and all-powerful. He's also supposed to be all-loving. What's interesting about this notion is it seems largely an invention of mainstream modern theology. Indeed, earlier theologians majored more on his wrathful, righteous side. For them, righteousness hardly seemed to correlate to niceness/meanness. Not that I think the ET/UR debate is merely one of how nice or mean God is. The eternal welfare of a sentient thinking, feeling creature is far more than how 'nice' God is, or how he panders to our 'humanistic do as you wish' theology. But we have to ask what is the essence of God? We're told we find this in how he is portrayed and what he says in the Bible, or for Muslims and Jews, the Quran and Torah respectively. Now every character in literature will strike a different chord with a person depending on a myriad of things. Which is the problem. How will a slave respond to those passages in the OT which condone slavery? How will a pagan respond to aspects of theology?
It boils down to differing understandings of love and goodness. To the fervent traditionalist, they sacrifice their own innate convictions about love because parts of the Bible contradict it in their own understanding. For instance, they believe in their heart torture is wrong, but because of Rev 20:10 is God's word, they force themselves to change that because God is supreme. Because it is God's word accepting it is conforming to God's mind and understanding. So they have to have a whole DIFFERENT understanding, one that is different from their innate convictions. Universalists, on the other hand, rely on their own innate feelings and convictions, sometimes ignoring or softening scripture. God created man, so in essence we should have the mind of God. Why do these doctrines so repel us? Ahhh, that's where sin comes in! We're too human to understand God's ways, who are we to question the righteousness of God? So in a way it warps our innate understanding of justice, goodness, mercy - or maybe 'enlightens it' so it leaves us confused because what we are taught/read in the Word is so different to our inbuilt sensibilities.
I find it interesting that quite a few religions do believe in Ultimate Reconciliation. I believe even in Zoroastrianism this was even a majority view, with the ET and Annihilationist views being in the majority. In a sense Buddhism is UR in that all eventually reach Nirvana, it just takes some longer than others. Religions where the wicked had no hope seemed to include the Greek religions, where the wicked would stay in Tartarus, a compartment of Hades, forever.
I suppose it boils down to the idea of God, doesn't it? God to us is mostly an idea and a character. An idea in that he's supposed to be omnipresent, omniscient and all-powerful. He's also supposed to be all-loving. What's interesting about this notion is it seems largely an invention of mainstream modern theology. Indeed, earlier theologians majored more on his wrathful, righteous side. For them, righteousness hardly seemed to correlate to niceness/meanness. Not that I think the ET/UR debate is merely one of how nice or mean God is. The eternal welfare of a sentient thinking, feeling creature is far more than how 'nice' God is, or how he panders to our 'humanistic do as you wish' theology. But we have to ask what is the essence of God? We're told we find this in how he is portrayed and what he says in the Bible, or for Muslims and Jews, the Quran and Torah respectively. Now every character in literature will strike a different chord with a person depending on a myriad of things. Which is the problem. How will a slave respond to those passages in the OT which condone slavery? How will a pagan respond to aspects of theology?
It boils down to differing understandings of love and goodness. To the fervent traditionalist, they sacrifice their own innate convictions about love because parts of the Bible contradict it in their own understanding. For instance, they believe in their heart torture is wrong, but because of Rev 20:10 is God's word, they force themselves to change that because God is supreme. Because it is God's word accepting it is conforming to God's mind and understanding. So they have to have a whole DIFFERENT understanding, one that is different from their innate convictions. Universalists, on the other hand, rely on their own innate feelings and convictions, sometimes ignoring or softening scripture. God created man, so in essence we should have the mind of God. Why do these doctrines so repel us? Ahhh, that's where sin comes in! We're too human to understand God's ways, who are we to question the righteousness of God? So in a way it warps our innate understanding of justice, goodness, mercy - or maybe 'enlightens it' so it leaves us confused because what we are taught/read in the Word is so different to our inbuilt sensibilities.
Trimac, God is love. What spirit was David using when he talked about smashing babies against rocks? Use the fruits of the Spirit to discern what is going on in the Bible. I think much of the Old Testament is written by spiritually immature men who can't discern the real God from the pagan gods. It looks to me like they are having a very difficult time doing so, just like many today. In fact, I think it is worse, seeing that our country says it's mostly Christian, doesn't even have a close grip on what that means, and holds the most dangerous weapons ever to exist on this planet and has stormed across the world with them. Something is wrong with Christianity.
Perfect LOVE casts out fear. God is love and he judges, not like a pagan god, but using the light of himself; the lake of fire. Remember, his throne has a stream of fire coming forth from it.
Universalists believe that we reap what we sow. Most Universalist I know do not believe that we can all just hug and sing and everything will be just fine no matter what we do. In fact, I believe many of us believe that the "gospel" that is preached today makes it way to easy to get "saved." Salvation is a process and many who fill those pews have no idea what is going on and aren't even close to being filled with spiritual health, or "saved."
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,076,059 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow
Trimac, God is love. What spirit was David using when he talked about smashing babies against rocks? Use the fruits of the Spirit to discern what is going on in the Bible. I think much of the Old Testament is written by spiritually immature men who can't discern the real God from the pagan gods. It looks to me like they are having a very difficult time doing so, just like many today. In fact, I think it is worse, seeing that our country says it's mostly Christian, doesn't even have a close grip on what that means, and holds the most dangerous weapons ever to exist on this planet and has stormed across the world with them. Something is wrong with Christianity.
Perfect LOVE casts out fear. God is love and he judges, not like a pagan god, but using the light of himself; the lake of fire. Remember, his throne has a stream of fire coming forth from it.
Universalists believe that we reap what we sow. Most Universalist I know do not believe that we can all just hug and sing and everything will be just fine no matter what we do. In fact, I believe many of us believe that the "gospel" that is preached today makes it way to easy to get "saved." Salvation is a process and many who fill those pews have no idea what is going on and aren't even close to being filled with spiritual health, or "saved."
Please keep studying.
On the net I've come across people who are rightly confused about the whole matter of 'how to get saved.' Modern Christianity does indeed make it too easy imo. It's 'quick fix' theology. Why? Because the consequences are so f**king bad! Accepting Christ is only half of it. There is an emphasis on sin being forgiven and on faith in place of actually following God's word and conforming to his will. Yes, alot of those who, during some Billy Graham rally or similar, who say the 'sinner's prayer' and all that, merely to satiate their peace of mind so they will not suffer forever and ever. It's grotesque and horror-show esque...and while many are indeed 'saved' in this way, without the proper background it deceives many as well. Like the parable of the sower.
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