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Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Gentiles were in previous unbelief.
Gentiles found mercy because of the Jews unbelief.
Jews will find mercy because of mercy shown to Gentiles.
Now, if we substitute believers for Gentiles and if we substitute unbelievers for Jews it now reads like this:
Believers were in previous unbelief.
Believers found mercy because of the unbelievers unbelief.
Unbelievers will find mercy because of mercy shown to believers.
Summary: God captures all in unbelief in order to show mercy to all.
Your explanation has nothing to do with the bolded part of that verse. They have now become disobedient (blind) so they may now receive mercy. Not, "They were given mercy before, and now it's all over." I'm pretty sure that's not what it says.
Jews hearts will be opened again when the number of the Gentiles is full, and at that time mercy will be shown to them again. This is true, but it does not mean that those who already died in their sins will be shown mercy.
Summary: God captures all in unbelief in order to show mercy to all.
God shows His mercy one nation at a time, first Jews, then Gentiles and then Jews again. Today He is showing mercy to the Gentiles, and the doors are open to all who will enter (some do, some don't), but then the number is full, the doors will be opened to Jews again.
I've been reading these threads and other threads and one thing becomes clear that the Bible is understood differantly by differant people. One thing Jesus said about why he spoke his teachings in parables is that it is not given to all to understand but only to some. The Bible is one big parable and some people are not meant to understand it at this time. It has nothing to do with how smart you are or how intuative, if God does not open your eyes you will not understand the spirital meaning of the scriptures. Remember many are called but few are chosen and even some who understand the Bible will not be chosen. God has already predestined Christ's Elect and they will be called when he returnes and will rule with him in the "Kingdom of God" the rest of humanity will be resserected at the culmination and be judged(CHASTIZED) then, and "when Gods judgements are in the earth(that us) the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. ISA 26:9.
"For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their
stubbornness, thus these who are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also
may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be
merciful to all" (Romans 11:30-32).
Notice that those stubborn were stubborn almost 2000 years ago. Those who were stubborn
died almost 2000 years ago. God said He would be merciful to those who were stubborn then
JUST AS He is merciful to us in giving us faith and making us vessels of mercy (see Romans 9).
So God still has to be merciful to those who were stubborn. The only way He can do that is to resurrect those who were stubborn so He can be merciful to them. So there is proof of salvation after death after all.
I must say here; this form of "proof" is intellectually "unique"! A circular argument used to prove itself! Amazing.
Actual "proof" of salvation after death would be your long-dead family member appearing in the room for a family dinner event (Christmas dinner), clad in a nicely fitting and festive white robe, perhaps with a special dinner guest (Jesus) in tow.
Jesus would, of course, bring an appropriate bottle of really good ('68 Late Harvest Zin from, say, Amador County in California?) red wine. In a bottle that miraculously refills itself as it's poured!
Originally Posted by Eusebius "For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, thus these who are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that he should be merciful to all" (Romans 11:30-32).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Romans 11:30-32 Does not promise salvation to those who have died in their sins, or will die in their sins. When Paul says 'mercy on all' he means both Gentiles and Jews, but obviously not every indivudual. First Gentiles were disobedient, and now Jews are. Having mercy on both means God made the same salvation available to Jews and Gentile but only on the terms which are repeated 200 times in the Bible: through faith in Christ.
Of course Romans 11:30-32 does promise salvation to those who, as Paul wrote in his day, presently or NOW stubborn. The "NOW" is pertaining to those Jews who were presently stubborn WHEN Paul wrote Romans.
God promised He would be merciful i.e., save those who were stubborn.
God locked them up in stubbornness. They didn't choose to be stubborn. He will unlock them in the future.
God will have mercy on ALL HE LOCKED UP IN STUBBORNNESS. How many were locked up in stubbornness 2000 years ago?
Of course Romans 11:30-32 does promise salvation to those who, as Paul wrote in his day, presently or NOW stubborn. The "NOW" is pertaining to those Jews who were presently stubborn WHEN Paul wrote Romans.
It says that nation of Israel will one day turn back to God. It talks about nations, not individuals who died in their sins. The message is rather clear, and it is also rather clear that you have failed to understand its meaning.
It says that nation of Israel will one day turn back to God. It talks about nations, not individuals who died in their sins. The message is rather clear, and it is also rather clear that you have failed to understand its meaning.
No Finn, the word "these" is plural who ARE (as Paul wrote) stubborn. There are not plural Israels. We are in fact talking about individuals.
So it is the "they," the plural persons OF ISRAEL who will one day be unlocked by God from the jail of stubbornness and be saved.
Remember Paul said not all Israel was blinded or hardened or stubborn because Paul was a Jew who believed.
God shows His mercy one nation at a time, first Jews, then Gentiles and then Jews again. Today He is showing mercy to the Gentiles, and the doors are open to all who will enter (some do, some don't), but then the number is full, the doors will be opened to Jews again.
I agree that Paul used "nations" in his example, but only for purposes of illustrating a higher truth. That is, how God deals with believers and unbelievers individually rather than collectively as nations.
If we consider ourselves as being of "one blood", and that we as individuals all live, move and have our being in God, rather than "nations" per se, the distinction and bounds of our dwelling become spiritual (belief vs unbelief) rather than tribal, or that of being a Jew or Gentile.
Act 17:26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth--having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings--
Act 17:27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, --though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.
In a very real sense, all mankind, both Jew's and Gentile's as individuals are collectively represented (one blood) in Adam's unbelief and disobedience. And, as Paul tells us here (as he also did in Rom 5:19), Jesus will show mercy to all.
Romans 11:30-36 CLV For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown
mercy at their stubbornness, (31) thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that
now they also may be shown mercy." (32) For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He
should be merciful to all." (33) O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of
God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!" (34) For, who knew the mind
of the Lord? or, who became His adviser? (35) or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
(36) seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons!
Amen!
Look at verse 36 above.
Do you believe that all is out of God?
Do you believe that all is through God?
Now here's the kicker:
Do you believe that the same "all" that is out of God is going to be "for God" as verse 36 says?
Now then, if you are going to say that the "all" is only *some* that will be for God then you must also say that only some things were out of God.
Now then, as to God's mercy; is He merciful to individuals or whole nations? Does He save individuals or a nations such as Iraq?
The point is this: there were many individuals who were stubborn to Christ and Paul . . . stubborn to God's mercy. Paul stated very clearly that God is going to be merciful to those who were stubborn. Do you believe that? Of course you don't.
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proof of salvation after death
