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In Matthew 24: 3-5....``Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, end the end of the world?....and JESUS answered and said unto him. take heed that no man deceive you.....for many shall come IN MY NAME, saying I am Christ, and shall deceive many....verse 10-13....and then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another and shall hate one another....and the false prophet shall rise and deceive many... and because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold ... but he that shall endure to the end , the same shall be saved``...... Repeat; ..``HE THAT SHALL ENDURE TO THE END ,THE SAME, SHALL BE SAVED``......That means if you do not endure to the end you will be lost to the Lord, which means eternal torment for your spirit ...... so here in the doctrine words of the saviour Jesus Christ is eternal lost people which contridicts the Universal reconiciliation ideas that all souls will be saved to God and Jesus is false doctrine, which says that Universalism is one of the false prophet who will rise and deceive many.........People only get saved by being obedient to the doctrine of Jesus Christ through his Word in the Bible , where people of UR take the short cut that leads to no interest in the saviour Jesus because all are reconciled to God anyway, which is a betrayal of pure truth......
Hi hljc!
I can certainly understand your conclusion. However, I think that we need to keep 2 things in mind as we read the above scriptures:
1) Jesus had the Spirit without measure. None of us here at City-data have that type of understanding. That means that confusion is sure to pop up at some point or another..
2) After studying Jesus' words, and keeping in mind that He told the disciples that He had "many things" to tell them, but that they were not ready, we ought to then go into the book of Acts and the Epistles, to see if anything "new" has happened since the resurrection. Any of the "many things" that Jesus wanted to tell the disciples. Here's an example of something that Jesus couldn't tell His disciples at first, but had to wait until they were ready to hear it:
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 5)
Another thing you will see in Acts, is that there is no preaching or warning people about eternal hell. None.
Yes, there is talk about punishment for those who work unrighteousness. But none of what Jesus talked about regarding hell is found in the Book of Acts and the epistles.
Or when Paul told the church at Corinth to examine themselves to see if they were in the faith: by knowing by experience that Jesus Christ was in them!
Curious, wouldn't you say?
I believe that the "he that shall endure to the end shall be saved" is not in reference to any "he" or "she" as an individual person, but the "he" which is the spirit in each of us, that spirit which "cannot sin" (see 1 John). That is who Jesus is referring to, aisi..
Eternal Torment is man's doctrine, not God's Word.
God's Word says that the only way people can come unto Him is if He draws them...He doesn't say that the way to Him is by teaching people that if they aren't saved, they will forever suffer torrential waves of burning fire that will never end.....
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
......Not my God...not the God that I know and love. He wouldn't create people only for the purpose of having them suffer burning torment for all eternity, He just wouldn't. That isn't God our Creator...that is a monster!
False teachers actually think that it is important to tell people they will burn forever so that they will turn to the Lord. They think it depends on them - forgetting that no man comes unto Jesus unless the Father draws him. The reality is the opposite is true - when people hear that they are going to burn forever they seek immediate and cheap salvation (like the OSAS group or the UR group), and the false comfort of knowing that their children will not burn if they just say the sinners prayer.
These two groups RUN! from the doctrine of Eternal Torment...and why not!...anyone would!...but the problem here is they also RUN! from the truth as well. It is sad as hell! that this docrine has severed...and for some, for good!...the intimate relationship they could be having with their Creator otherwise.
The fact is, is God absolutely does not say, anywhere! that all unsaved people will suffer eternal damnation...He says the Beast, the false prophet, and the devil will be tormented day and night..not EVERYONE! who isn't saved...but only those who worshipped the Beast and had his mark: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev.20:10)
Will all people be saved? NO.
So will ALL! those who die unsaved ALL! be Eternally Tormented? NO.
What will be the destiny of most of the unsaved? ANNIHILATION. <<<THAT! is mercy!...THAT! is justice!...THAT! is fair!
REPENT or PARISH! <<Dissolve!
We cannot scare people into believing. It all begins with the Father - not our preaching. The very thought of a Monster God who creates some people for no other purpose than to live, die and burn forever drives people away from Christianity.
I woke up this morning thinking about you. There is something that always crosses my mind when I see your name on a thread or a post but I've never said anything. But now that we are talking about annhiliation, and you've said that you do not know if you will ever see your loved ones again, it's made me want to share this.
I know what you believe (as far as what you share on these boards.) I know a lot of things you hold to be true. You share a LOT of what you believe on these boards. But I will tell you Verna, the only thing that stands out in my mind when it comes to you is a picture. A picture of you, in a pretty white blouse, holding your granddaughter. You have a lovely smile on your face. But what stands out is your eyes. You are looking up at the camera and your eyes are filled with such remarkable love, such wonder, that it makes you stop.... and ponder the LOVE of God himself.
For all of your countless threads... the thing that stands out to me, Verna is your eyes. Holding your granddaughter and the love, the sheer love coming from your eyes as you look up into the camera. That is what comes to mind every single time I see your name on a post. "Verna Perry" and that image instantly comes to mind. After all of these months, that image still springs to mind everytime. And it makes me smile. Because it is a picture of LOVE.
What is precious to you, your love for your granddaughter, it will never end. Your granddaughter is in the palm of His hands. I know that you don't see things the way that I do. But, I hope, one day you do. We love Him because HE first loved us. There are many, many who don't YET know or feel that love. But when they finally do... they will love Him. Every knee will bow and every tongue will SWEAR allegiance. His plan is unfolidng as it should... He draws us. We do not just come to Him. He draws every many in His own time.
You may see your granddaughter drawn to Him while you are still here on this earth, or you may not. But she will be drawn in her own time. And she too, will one day, REALIZE the love of God, and her knees will buckle from the weight of it. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing.
Have faith in that picture. As much love pours out from you in that picture of you holding her, His love for her is much, much greater. It's hard to fathom, isn't it? It's hard to fathom anyone could possibly love her more than you! But... there is one who does. Our Father. Our Creator. She is in good hands. Love doesn't destroy anything except for ONE thing: NON-love. Love CONQUERS ALL. Love overcomes ALL non-love. Not by way of snuffing it out, or annihilating, but by way of OVERCOMING it. We love because HE first loved us.
Love is the most powerful thing in this universe. God IS Love.
The love you feel for your granddaughter...has a source.
The source of ALL love is GOD. Love is never, ever in vain.
Our love for each other is just the beginning, eye has not seen, what God plans for those who love Him. We will ALL love Him. Every knee will bow and every tongue will SWEAR ALLEGIANCE. Think on that last part.
This is the full picture of Victory. The picture that gives God the GREATEST Glory. HE is the GOOD SHEPHERD. Not one will be lost.
The way we start to understand God is through our LOVE for each other. Why do you think God gave us children of our own... so we would start to understand HIS love for each of us. If our love is so great for our children, we just being human, how much GREATER is the love of our Creator. Our love for each other only shows us a small glimpse.. Hold onto it. It's the most important sermon you could ever preach. And I tell you Verna, your picture of you holding your granddaughter IS the MOST important sermon you have ever or will ever preach, in my eyes. I hope you understand what I am saying, sister.
Peace to you, Verna.
You don't have to respond, just maybe file this away somewhere and look at it again sometime. That's all I ask. I don't want to debate. I really don't. If you don't agree with me right now, I understand. We can agree to disagree. But I just wanted to share this with you.
People only get saved by being obedient to the doctrine of Jesus Christ through his Word in the Bible , where people of UR take the short cut that leads to no interest in the saviour Jesus because all are reconciled to God anyway, which is a betrayal of pure truth......
Stop continuously displaying your ignorance of UR by this lie. This is obviously the nonsense that you have been taught about UR . . . but it is NOT the truth about UR. Nothing you have said or believe about UR in your posts is true. You are badly misinformed . . . and despite efforts to educate you . . . you seem immune to learning anything. You just repeat the lies you have been told about it during your indoctrination in the ancient ignorance.
......Not my God...not the God that I know and love. He wouldn't create people only for the purpose of having them suffer burning torment for all eternity, He just wouldn't. That isn't God our Creator...that is a monster!
God does not create anyone to burn in hell forever, as it's by their own choice to serve sin is what sends them to the eternal torments of hell. The multitudes in hell, and those on their way, have rejected the Father's perfect blood sacrifice (Jesus) to lead them into God's holiness and righteousness. Without holiness, no man will see the Lord -- and there's nothing but judgement left for those who ultimately reject holiness.
It's time for people to put their feelings aside and live by faith, for the Word declares that the just shall live by faith; and going by what we feel is not faith. God said there is eternal torment for the damned, and by faith we are to accept it. God's ways are higher than our ways, and we are not to lean to our own understanding.
Why does everyone like to focus on ET or UR both of which are unbiblical. This is why I prefer ES. If you are eternally seperated from God, where are you? Non existant. Without God we are nothing, every ounce of our being is reliant on God even the evil we do is only possible by God. Not that He condones such things but He does allow them for our education. Satan cannot do anything without God and since he choses evil he will be punished but what of the unsaved, what does the Bible say? It says ET. It says UR. It says ES. And it even says Annialation. Now take all the verses that say these things and form a theory on God. A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day, so you are being annialated in an instance how long does that instance last? Eternally? God says that it is His will that all be reconciled. Cut all the sin out of your being and how much will be left? If you are in Christ all will be cleansed and the desire to sin will be gone, but if you are still in rebellion how much of what makes you you will be left? Will you be a vegitable? Will you enter the kingdom without eyes? Think about what God has said and use your imagination. All are real, ET, UR, ES, Annialation, how will God rectify them to His plan?
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
It disturbs me greatly that in every verse in which Paul juxtaposes Adam with Jesus and man ("for as in Adam one....so in Christ shall....'') he always uses "all" when describing men ("..shall ALL men...") but here in this one verse he doesn't use "all"; instead he uses "many", which is not "all" men. Clearly some men are "made righteous" while some are not made righteous. Anyone care to comment on this glaring discrepancy?
It disturbs me greatly that in every verse in which Paul juxtaposes Adam with Jesus and man ("for as in Adam one....so in Christ shall....'') he always uses "all" when describing men ("..shall ALL men...") but here in this one verse he doesn't use "all"; instead he uses "many", which is not "all" men. Clearly some men are "made righteous" while some are not made righteous. Anyone care to comment on this glaring discrepancy?
It also says many right before that though:
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..
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