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The bible talks about a war within the regenerate born again believer. The battle is between the flesh/natural Man and the Holy Spirit.
The Bible clearly states that if we obey the flesh, we shall die.
This is a pretty heavy statement. While many would suggest that this is not talking about the "second death", others disagree. Others believe that one has to overcome by the power of God walking after the Spirit by Faith in Jesus enduring until the end.
I think it is clear; however, that the Bible does say that those that are Christ's have crucified the flesh. It also says that those that are led by the Spirit (yielding to the Spirit) are the Sons of God.
So what of the fate to those that walk after/obey the flesh unto death? The bible talks about a group in 2 peter 2 who walk primarily after the flesh. Peter says they are the "servants of corruption". The book of Jude uses the same type of language in describing these people.
The bottom line is we better check our own hearts to make sure that we are not one of them. It says "the midst of darkness is reserved forever" for these people. Now if you'd like to interpret "forever" as an age than you can answer for that yourself in the day if judgment. I think it is clear what it is saying.
So the question is, are you one of those that are "for ordained to this condemnation"? Read 2 peter 2 and the book of Jude. Are you walking after your flesh? The bible says our heart is deceitful and desperately wicked so this should come to prayer. Is you eyes full of adultery? Is your motivation love or greed? Etc.. Read the chapters, pray about it, and if needed to repent. I must admit I've brought this to prayer. I certainly have been given a lot of light. To live after the flesh is not an option and if I were to choose to do so I think it's clear the destiny would be dismal. Obey Jesus Christ yielding to His Spirit..The only option.
I can not give someone full confidence of their position before God if their is no change in lifestyle committed to forsaking the flesh walking after the Spirit.
I cannot say with full assurance that the death being talked about in romans 6 is not the second death. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the Sons of God. ( romans 8)
Last edited by Mikelee81; 04-15-2013 at 11:09 AM..
Reason: missed something
It's a shame lists like this get such little attention. One thing to be noted is that one Jesus started talking about the life after the Spirit denying self and the flesh many disciples decided to leave him. (John 6)
The way to life is narrow, and few there be that find it.
This is a very good post. Though there are many that ignore this, you are quite correct. For confirmation of this, look at Jesus parable of the sower. Some believe for awhile, but in a time of testing, they fall away. Some fall away because they bear no fruit, that is there is no genuine faith, no good works, no love for their fellow man. Some fall for other reasons, that is trusting in their own good works to save them, but yes many will fall because they live to please the flesh, rather than to serve God, as Rom.8 makes clear.
And yes the "die" Rom.8 talks about is clearly spiritual death. All people die, so that is common to all people. But Paul makes a distinction between die, and "you will live" Clearly he means spiritual life and death.
I think your understanding of this doctrine is incorrect. If you were correct there would be NO HOPE for anyone. The correct understanding of these things is to know the difference between the regenerated and the unregenerated. To understand salvation as the OP puts forward would mean that salvation is a result of WORKS and we know full well from scripture that it IS NOT such a thing in any way, shape or form.
These kinds of heresies arise because of a very defiecient understanding of the entire subject of "The fall of man" and the results of that fall from Grace. This fall so corrupted Mankind that it left all of Adams posterity in a spiritual condition the bible often refers to as "Dead". This spiritual "Deadness" is because of the Nature of Man that is a sin nature. Sin touches us at all of our points and there is absolutely NOTHING we can do on our own to gain any merit in God's sight. It is not sinning that makes Man a sinner but conversely Man sins BECAUSE he is a sinner. There is a very large difference between the two concepts.
So, do you believe that your good works are acceptable to God because of their goodness and your obedience to God's commands? If you do think that then you do not understand the first thing about Christianity. Every single thing we say, do or think is in one way or another stained by the sin that dwells within our flesh. GOD finds us acceptable ONLY for the sake of Christ and what HE has done for us. Why was it that Paul that mighty man of God called himself, "The chief of sinners"? He knew full well his own position in relation to a HOLY GOD. How is it also that such a great man of God could say, Why is it that I don't do what I want to do and I do what I don't want to do"? He fully understood the state of his corrupted flesh.
When we are regenerated by The Spirit of God it causes us to desire to live a holy and blameless life and the Christian works to this end. That is the process of scantification. You have got to understand that after a lifetime of working out our salvation we might be .00000000000000000000000000000000000001% near perfect in our flesh. God requires 100% perfection. So, for the 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% imperfection that defines the most scantified Christian, it's only and always the Grace of God that justifies.
I think the bigger danger is trying not live after the flesh. Our growth( yes we do not arrive over night) depends very much on what we are focused on,and trying to fight the flesh, there is only one winner.
That the sharing of your faith may become effective by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus Philemon1:6
Sharing our faith is not meaning tell everyone we are a Christian, but the evidence of who we are.
I think your understanding of this doctrine is incorrect. If you were correct there would be NO HOPE for anyone. The correct understanding of these things is to know the difference between the regenerated and the unregenerated. To understand salvation as the OP puts forward would mean that salvation is a result of WORKS and we know full well from scripture that it IS NOT such a thing in any way, shape or form.
These kinds of heresies arise because of a very defiecient understanding of the entire subject of "The fall of man" and the results of that fall from Grace. This fall so corrupted Mankind that it left all of Adams posterity in a spiritual condition the bible often refers to as "Dead". This spiritual "Deadness" is because of the Nature of Man that is a sin nature. Sin touches us at all of our points and there is absolutely NOTHING we can do on our own to gain any merit in God's sight. It is not sinning that makes Man a sinner but conversely Man sins BECAUSE he is a sinner. There is a very large difference between the two concepts.
So, do you believe that your good works are acceptable to God because of their goodness and your obedience to God's commands? If you do think that then you do not understand the first thing about Christianity. Every single thing we say, do or think is in one way or another stained by the sin that dwells within our flesh. GOD finds us acceptable ONLY for the sake of Christ and what HE has done for us. Why was it that Paul that mighty man of God called himself, "The chief of sinners"? He knew full well his own position in relation to a HOLY GOD. How is it also that such a great man of God could say, Why is it that I don't do what I want to do and I do what I don't want to do"? He fully understood the state of his corrupted flesh.
When we are regenerated by The Spirit of God it causes us to desire to live a holy and blameless life and the Christian works to this end. That is the process of scantification. You have got to understand that after a lifetime of working out our salvation we might be .00000000000000000000000000000000000001% near perfect in our flesh. God requires 100% perfection. So, for the 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% imperfection that defines the most scantified Christian, it's only and always the Grace of God that justifies.
Thank you for your response.
The confusion comes with understanding "works" of the law - attempting to fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law in the flesh - Meaning attempting to fulfill God's commandments OUTSIDE of God's provision through His Holy Spirit- and fulfilling Christ's commandments By and THROUGH the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.
So one is me (fleshly fallen me attempting to fulfill God's Law), while the other is reckoning (a faith term active on our part) our bodies "dead" to sin/self YIELDING to God's Spirit to operate in our lives.
The promise in Galatians 5:16 is that when we are walking in the Spirit, we "shall not" (I guess in the Greek it is an emphatic double negative such as "never under any circumstances") fulfill the lusts/desires of the flesh.
It says that those that are walking after the Spirit, that THESE are the Sons of God (romans 8). It says that those that are Christ's "have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.( Galatians 5:24). Now throughout the text it does say that this "death" that we were baptized into, but it also says it's something we must do actively moment by moment "crucifying" the flesh.
So the issue cones down to in Romans 6, if the "death" being talked for yielding ourselves to sin is the second death or other types of "death" such as temporal physical death, spiritual death (as in death of fellowship), etc.
At the present moment I do hold the position that it is not the second death as I so believe in the ministry of Sealing of the Holy Spirit. There is other evidence that temporal death could be alluded to.
For example those in Corinth that fell "asleep" due to their carnality. It is true when you look this word up in a concordance that just about every time it is used, it is used of believers in Jesus.
This has been something I've been looking into as my brother currently attends pentecostal church which teaches the Arminian doctrine.
So there is a theological excavation.
The issue is fruit bearing not perfection.
Regardless of which, I don't believe it's wise for one to continually live after the flesh as opposed to letting God work on that potter's wheel conforming us into the image of His Son over time.
I will say that any doctrine that proposes that fallen Man can be "perfect" is a false doctrine. We must be clothed in the righteousness of Faith in Jesus.
I tend to agree with pcamps, in that "as a man thinketh, so is he". We can get so wrapped up in where we are as a believer, what are we doing, what have we done, etc...that our focus is no longer on Him, but ourselves - and I've seen it happen in some precious people that dearly loved the Lord.
Narcissistic Christianity?
I think of the lyric, "...when all things become shadows in the light of You..." that's where we should be, imo. Jesus reminded them that wished to follow, "God is spirit - they that worship Him must do so in spirit, and in truth." I believe that "truth" is not just a proper view of God, but a focus on Him that is not clouded by the things in our natural state; i.e. casting down the things that exalt themselves against the knowledge of Christ...
...and what is the knowledge of Christ? Who is He, and what has He come to do in you? That's what we're to meditate on, and what we meditate on, we become.
I tend to agree with pcamps, in that "as a man thinketh, so is he". We can get so wrapped up in where we are as a believer, what are we doing, what have we done, etc...that our focus is no longer on Him, but ourselves - and I've seen it happen in some precious people that dearly loved the Lord.
Narcissistic Christianity?
I think of the lyric, "...when all things become shadows in the light of You..." that's where we should be, imo. Jesus reminded them that wished to follow, "God is spirit - they that worship Him must do so in spirit, and in truth." I believe that "truth" is not just a proper view of God, but a focus on Him that is not clouded by the things in our natural state; i.e. casting down the things that exalt themselves against the knowledge of Christ...
...and what is the knowledge of Christ? Who is He, and what has He come to do in you? That's what we're to meditate on, and what we meditate on, we become.
Narcissistic Christianity. That's good, and I think you hit the nail right on the head...
Who are we focused on? Ourselves or God and others. What does God want us to focus on?
I think this helps correct any false doctrine. Any doctrine that puts the focus on self as opposed to Christ and others has to be wrong.
When we're constantly concerned about ourselves in our position with God, we really aren't loving others but really only self. Attempting to love others but really only loving self.
Self righteousness. Self love.. Stumbling at that stumbling stone.
So I think one has to come to the purity of doctrine that one is save, blood bought by no effort whatsoever on their part, by the Spirit of God in the new birth in which the sinner receives (done to them).
Since there is absolutely no merit, there is absolute security by one's Faith in Christ. Therefore the focus is on God and others not self which is what I think it's clear God wants.
In fact without that love that 'seeks not its own' that 1 cor 13 talks about (that agape self sacrificing love of God) we are said we are nothing.
Good talk.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 04-20-2013 at 08:22 AM..
Narcissistic Christianity. That's good, and I think you hit the nail right on the head...
Who are we focused on? Ourselves or God. What does God want us to focus on?
I think this helps correct any false doctrine. Any doctrine that puts the focus on self as opposed to Christ and others has to be wrong.
When we're constantly concerned about ourselves in our position with God, we really aren't loving others but really only self. Attempting to love others but really only loving self.
When we know our true identity in Christ we cannot help but be focused on him. Sadly many of us do not know our true identity, so how can we possibly know that of God's if that is the case?. Putting it another way,while we are focused on what we are in the flesh, we have either forgotten who we are or don't know who we are in Christ.
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