Universalism was Not the predominant belief of the Early Church. Eternal Punishment for the wicked was! (believer, sin)
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Well, I agree satan is the accuser of the brethren......
BUT, let me remind YOU, universalism is not of God, it is heresy, very much occultic, so therefore those who believe and follow this false teaching have fallen from the grace of God and are not of God..... that makes them NOT a brother or sister or children in the kingdom of God !!
Plain and simple, there is no debating about it !!
Have a nice evening
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Originally Posted by Heartsong
As usual, you ignored the scriptures from Romans about nothing being able to separate us from the love of God in Christ. Your pompous attitude is palpable as ever. If you don't want to debate, stop accusing people of being false teachers. And someday you will eat humble pie.
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Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin
Why do you have to be so mean all the time ??
Not accusing anyone of anything..... stating a fact that universalism is not of God.
That you do not see the meanness in your own accusations (and they are accusations) speaks volumes about the state of your soul and the Spirit you serve. Your supposed "fact" is nothing but the opinion of those who have retained the ancient ignorance of our ancestors' superstitious beliefs about God. Your arrogance in proclaiming it as fact is further proof of your prideful and judgmental nature. You deny that those who follow Christ are Christian just because you believe in a different fate for those who do NOT follow Christ. There can be no greater accusation of the brethren than that, Cyber. We are followers of Christ who are no different than you as followers of Christ . . . we just believe in a different fate for non-followers . . . that's all.
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Sorry you feel the need to be so insulting tonight..... I do forgive you for it, Heartsong and do know God will show you the truth of universalism one day !!
You are the insulting one in need of forgiveness, Cyber . . . from God. Check your own accusatory and judgmental nature and the Spirit you follow that causes you to so accuse the brethren.
Somewhere between the doctrinal positions of eternal torment and universal redemption are those that believe the unsaved will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be burned up and cease to exist. What do you say about that belief?
"Love casts out fear; but the one who fears, is not perfected in love."
A logical fallacy consisting of selective and prejudicial formation of non-existent
evidence is that which says; "Correction is not necessary for Eternal life..."
...comes from seaside peddlers, regardless of where they are camping.
The pain in hell only stops, so that it is put into the lake of fire forever and pain and fire and hoplessness increases for ever, the worms and the fire never ends, the devil has all sorts of tricks, and as hard as it is to face eternal damnation is real and getting to God is not a game, for He cares for you
Arena in the valley,
give us a half inch we will take a mile, give us a half stage we will start a rampage, time for a new stage, hurricane a coming, Hurricane Jesus Christ
"Love casts out fear; but the one who fears, is not perfected in love."
A logical fallacy consisting of selective and prejudicial formation of non-existent evidence is that which says; "Correction is not necessary for Eternal life..."
...comes from seaside peddlers, regardless of where they are camping.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your answer. Could you dumb it down a bit so that I might follow your reasoning?
Somewhere between the doctrinal positions of eternal torment and universal redemption are those that believe the unsaved will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be burned up and cease to exist. What do you say about that belief?
There is actually more Biblical evidence for annihilation of the wicked than either ET or universalism. Likely why serious scholars of the Bible are turning away from ET and embracing it.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Perish and eternal life in this context are direct opposites. Same as in Romans...."the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life...."
The error made by both camps is basic and fundamental to the whole debate. The presumed natural immortality of man. The Bible is crystal clear on that issue, man is mortal. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die".(Ezek. 18:4) According to Paul man must seek immortality. (Romans 2:7) Why? Because, again according to Paul, only God is immortal, (1 Tim.6:16) therefore immortality must come as a gift from God,(Romans 6:23) and that gift is conditional on faith, for "the just shall live by faith". The gift of immortality comes to the believer at the time of the second coming. (1 Cor. 15)
To claim that eternal life or immortality is given as a gift to the wicked for the sole purpose of keeping people alive so that God's justice can be meted out is absurd. (In fact, ET means that God's justice can in fact never be fully met. Equally absurd.) Also absurd is the idea that man can enter a fire that consumes but not be consumed, an idea again founded on the false assumption that man cannot die.
Both camps echo the first lie ever to be told, repeating the first sermon ever to be preached by our arch enemy..."thou shalt not surely die...."
To think that those in hell are in spirit form burning alive, but then their body gets resurrected and joins them, I wonder how this fits into it all? resurection of the just and unjust?
Without going into to many details, because that has been done already on this subject multiple times in various threads, i will say a few things in answer to the OP ...
First of all, Jerome ... Jerome was an avid student and subscriber to the teachings of Origen in his early years, but later under pressure from the status quo and pressure from his contemporaries in the Latin church, Jerom sold his soul to the Roman theocracy and adopted the doctrine of "Eternal Torture".
And when one reads his letters concerning his translations of Origen's works from Greek into Latin, he is known to have openly admitted to his "editing" or what is otherwise known as "censoring" the works of Origen in the process of translation(The phrase "lost in translation", springs to mind).
Also, when studying the history of the Church one will discover that the Roman Emperor Constantine, who was himself a devout pagan(reportedly converted to Christianity on his deathbed) and man of extreme violence having murdered multiple family members, chose to infiltrate the Christian faith and use its power in order to reunite his empire and regain power of the state over the masses through manipulation of the gospel message.
Thus came the dawning of a new religion of which centered its teaching on the everlasting torture for most of humanity, and which was comprised of ancient pagan teachings and rituals and the teachings of Christ and his apostles, the Roman Catholic Church.
From the third century on, one can trace the eventual apostasy of the new Roman Theocratic version of Christianity from the true faith, up through the inevitable outcome of such abysmal doctrines, the dark ages, through the reformation to our present day.
Also note that many of the church fathers which Mike refers to in the OP are the very church fathers who's writings provide the very foundation of the Roman Catholic theocratic religion which has for over 1500 years pretended to be the elect of Christ.
Many of the writings which the OP quotes are answered in the same way that the new testament scriptures which are touted by ET'ers as evidence for their abominable doctrines are answered, and it is summed up in the phrase "lost in translation" ...
The Greek word "aionios", which is translated in many English new testament translations as "eternal", does not in fact mean "eternal" as the western mind understands the term today. In truth the Greek word "aionios" means "of the age" ...
And there are many evidences of this, including the very words used by the Emperor Justinian when he attempted to force the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church of his time to add to the Greek manuscripts the Greek word "ATELEUTETOS" or some other word which rightly communicated the meaning of everlasting.
Follow the rabbit hole deep enough and you will find ample evidences which prove that the diabolical doctrine of ET was interpolated into the Christian faith when the roman empire made Christianity the religion of the sate and sought to control the masses through the ancient pagan teaching of everlasting torture for all who are outside the "protection" of the state and its false religion.
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