Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-26-2011, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,436,320 times
Reputation: 428

Advertisements

Starting form scratch through the various elements surrounding the rapture doctrine is something I don't wan't to take on. Since I am a Preterist, coming from that particular angle is where I have to begin. Many of us here reading already have a presupposition contrary to the millennialist doctrine of the rapture, so it would be fruitless to waste our time on it. I will briefly touch on some of the major points in defense of this doctrine, and counter it as I see fit. This analysis of the rapture doctrine, placed in it historical context, is precisely what I am going to spearhead. Without syntactical gymnastics, we are going to address the reason why Paul used the language he used in 1 Thess 4:17 and to what end it covered theologically for those who eagerly awaited Christ's return, and most specifically, the audience to whom he was speaking.

We are going to focus on harpazo, or the conjugated verb of that:

ἁρπαγησόμεθα - shall be caught up - First Person Future Passive Indicative Plural

Paul writes that we will be ἁρπαγησόμεθα in the clouds in 1 Thessalonians 4.17.I believe he is applying imagery from Daniel 7.13-15 to indicate Christ is the returning son of man figure.

N.T. Wright sees three images behind Paul’s words:
(1) Moses coming down from Sinai where we have a trumpet and a loud voice.
(2) “Daniel 7, in which the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds to sit with God in glory.”
(3) When emperors visit colonies within the empire and “the citizens of the country would go to meet him at some distance from the city” in order to welcome him as ruler.
N.T. Wright, Surprised by Hope, 132.

We have two intertextual echoes and one historical antecedent that give context to 1 Thess. 4.17. So our being “caught up” to meet Christ has more to do with Dan. 7 imagery of the saints victoriously joining Christ in his descent upon evil as well as the Parousia concept in the ancient world of the people of a colony welcoming their ruling emperor.

In the ancient world, it was common to see "caught up" language is common in Greco-Roman epitaphs from burial memorials, saying something along the lines of "caught up in death." Among the pagans, there was virtually no belief of life after death. In fact, among the Roman upper classes, this belief in resurrection put Christianity in the realm of fantasy; perhaps, this is why Festus declared: "Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad." (Acts 26:24) William Barclay (The Letters to the Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians, p. 203) quotes ancient philosophers in the subject of dying: "Aeschylus wrote, ‘Once a man dies there is no resurrection.' Theocritus wrote, ‘There is hope for those who are alive, but those who have died are without hope.' Catullus wrote, ‘When once our brief light sets, there is one perpetual night through which we must sleep.' On their tombstones grim epitaphs were carved. ‘I was not; I became; I am not; I care not.' One of the most pathetic papyrus letters that has come down to us is a letter of sympathy which runs like this. ‘Irene to Taonnophris and Philo, good comfort. I was as sorry and wept over the departed one as I wept for Didymas. And all things whatsoever were fitting, I did, and all mine, Epaphroditus and Thermouthion and Philion and Appollonius and Plantas. But nevertheless against such things one can do nothing. Therefore comfort ye one another.'" (Col. 2:8)

Paul's use is to say they are "caught up" to the highest form of life, instead of death, contrasting it with what would have been known as a common euphemism for dying. So it would seem that Paul's message is not really referring to any intricate details of the catching-up, but rather contrasting the supposed finality of the catching-up of death with the hope those who are alive have of being caught up into eternal life with the Lord. By the use of "we," Paul wasn't necessarily stating that he would be caught up in the rapture. In Phil. 3:10-11, Paul desired to "attain to the resurrection from the dead." Later in this epistle, Paul wrote, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him" (1 Thess 5:10). When writing, Paul uses "we" to identify with all Christians. The issue of preceding "those who are asleep" was obviously of great concern to the Thessalonians. They may have thought...."Would those Christians who preceded us in death truly be "left behind?" Paul wrote definitively that the dead in Christ will rise first . (John 5:28-29)

This makes much more sense, since the surrounding context of the passage seems to be Paul addressing a concern the Thessalonians had regarding what happened to those who died before Christ's return. Apparently, they were afraid those who had died were dead forever, with no resurrection. . Paul's intent is not to set a pre or post-trib or whatever trib doctrine, but to comfort the Thessalonians and to teach them of the certainty of final resurrection for those who have died as believers. To try and set a timeline, or even a relative timeline is warranted by the passage. Though if anything I think its clear that if the passage sets a relative timeline it says that the coming of Christ and the resurrection and the "catching-up" all happen in very close temporal proximity to Paul's letter.

For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16-17)

This passage is often cited as proof text for the rapture but Paul was not speaking of a literal event where all true believers will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air. Paul was referencing the political and military custom where citizens would leave the security of their walled city to "Go out and meet" visiting generals, kings and dignitaries. They would do so unarmed as a gesture of subservience and then escort the dignitary into the city as an honored guest.

Paul's statement lines up perfectly with Revelation.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:1-2)

Christ will come once and then those who wait for Him will escort him back to earth as a honored guest and he will transform the church into the heavenly Jerusalem. Rapture theology is also based on the several passages where Christ speaks of one being taken and another being left behind.

I tell you, on that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken, the other left. And there will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left. (Luke 17:34-25)

Rapture theologists use this passage outside of it's context. These lines are part of a larger discourse about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. Besides, Jesus prefaces his statement about being taken and being left behind several verses earlier by saying...

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man; they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up to the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Similarly, as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; on the day when Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. So it will be on the day the Son of Man is revealed. (Luke 17:26-30)

We see the same imagery Paul is leaning on in Phil 3:20-21

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly bwait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Don’t misread the statement that our citizenship is “in heaven”. That doesn’t mean we must “go” there to get it. It is obvious that even in this passage, like the others we have mentioned, resurrection is the focus and if resurrection is the focus then we do not regain our bodies to “go”.

Several key passages are now to be analyzed in lieu of our focal point.

Describing the vast majority who "heareth the Word of the Kingdom, and understandeth it not" (Matt 13:19), Satan "catcheth away [Greek, harpazo] that which was sown in his heart" (Matthew 13:19). The events surrounding the Rapture are by stealth to the ungodly, i.e., the "Day of the LORD so cometh as a thief in the night" (1Thess 5:2), but not to the Godly. "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thess 5:4).

"Harpazo" is used to describe the great multitudes of people who were ready to "come and take Him [Jesus] by force [Greek, harpazo], to make Him a king" (John 6:15). Though they had the base design of wanting to force Jesus to be their benefactor for selfish reasons, it does remind us that the LORD will take His own by force for His own pleasure. "Thou art worthy, O LORD, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created" (Revelation 4:11). It is the pleasure of our King to rapture His people, that "where [King Jesus is], there ye may be also" (John 14:3).

The Good Shepherd teaches us that He cares for us as His sheep. "I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Compare the LORD Jesus Christ as the Good Shepherd as opposed to a "hireling" (John 10:12). "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth [Greek, harpazo] them, and scattereth the sheep" (John 10:12). Again, Satan will catch those who "received not the love of the Truth" (2 Thess 2:10), and these will "be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess 2:12).

Continuing with His analogy of Shepherd and sheep, Jesus assures us that no one is capable of seizing us by force out of His hand. "28 And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck [Greek, harpazo] them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck [Greek, harpazo] them out of My Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). In this instance, it is with great relief that we are not snatched away-- by Satan. "The Name of the LORD is a Strong Tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe" (Proverbs 18:10).

Now let's read very carefully here about Phillip:

Philip the Evangelist was directed by the angel of the LORD to go to Gaza. He met an Ethiopian, who was a chief officer of Queen Candace, reading Isaiah 53.

"6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth" (Isaiah 53:6-7).

Expounding these Scriptures concerning Jesus the Messiah, the Ethiopian eunuch believed, and was baptized. "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the LORD caught away [Greek, harpazo] Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing" (Acts 8:39). In this instance, Philip was caught away to other earthly employments. About twenty years later, the Apostle Paul stayed over at Philip's house in Caesarea (Acts 21:8). But, to be caught away by the LORD means to be repositioned for a higher service.

So what do we do with the part in 1 Thess. 4.17 where we are “caught up”. It almost seems like resurrection could be so we “go to heaven” where Christ has been. I think this misses Paul’s point and it ignores the Johannine and Lukan contributions to our eschatology that we have noted.

ἅμα. Does this (A) emphasize the σὺν: ‘together with’ (NIV), or (B) emphasize the unity of the περιλειπόμενοι, or (C) state the unity of all the living Christians since that specific event?

shall be caught up (Harpazo) aΊrpa/zw har-pad'-zo

to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away

the clouds (Nephele) nefeΡlh nef-el'-ay

a cloud
used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness

Cloud in this verse is different from "cloud" as we know it. It is meant to represent the Spirit of God as shown above. This is found in Exodus, when a pillar cloud lead the israelites into the wilderness. This was not a "normal" cloud, but the Spirit of God.

to (Eis)
meet (Apantesis) a)pa/nthsiv ap-an'-tay-sis
the Lord (Kurios) ku/riov koo'-ree-os
in (Eis) the air (Aer) aΉh/r ah-ayr'

the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air

As seen here, the "air" means the "air" right above the surface of the earth or denser air, such as above mountain terrain. This matches up with scripture in the Old Testament, that this air, in the clouds, resides in a realm although yet physical in appearance, is none other than the spiritual realm in which God abides. Riding swiftly on the clouds of Heaven.

In conclusion, it is hard to interpret this as a voluntary action of the caught up saints, dead or alive. Paul is clear that external force (God) makes it, it is not voluntary decision. The language Paul used was common usage for the ancients when applying a higher spiritual existence that does not necessarily denotes incorporeal living solely, but rather an existence that was shown through various works and historical elements that were concerned with higher, divine service, whether it be in this world, another, or both incorporated together, as such is current with any Christian and their life. Paul exemplifies the act of the chastised bride 2 Cor 11:2…leaving the city walls…prepared for the husband Christ, catching up His bride in consummation The Parousia (Presence or indwelling), Marriage, Harpazo, etc…are all part of one grand scheme and panoramic event…the end of the Old Covenant terminally….the city walls of the temple fell, and the saints and Christ indwell cohesively in the physical, natural and spiritual dimensions that we call reality…Heaven on Earth….as it is on Earth, it is in Heaven…complete union like "Christ's" resurrected and ascended body…as the two were indeed compatible…that is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus comes, Christians meet him in the "spirit sky/air" and then follow him back to earth where all the other judgements take place, and then the wedding feast begins….the marriage, the honeymoon, and all the life's toil of endurance, overcoming of "temptations" to sin, throughout the ages to come, unto a world without end, where in the earth abodes forever....

The saints of the first century and those that slept, were indeed caught up, in eternal life and service, and those who eagerly awaited Him, were positioned here on earth into priestly service, for the Lord God, Jesus Christ.

Thanks for reading.

Ken Palmer
Covenant Preterism
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-26-2011, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,530,305 times
Reputation: 1739
And I just don't get how you can not be a universalist. Preterism and UR go hand in hand, IMO.
I read this and it all points to UR as the logical step into the new covenant. "I will remember your sins no more"

Anyway.. Great post.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-26-2011, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,365,848 times
Reputation: 2296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Thanks for reading.
My pleasure, for what the Spirit perfectly unites, no man can separate.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-27-2011, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,436,320 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
And I just don't get how you can not be a universalist. Preterism and UR go hand in hand, IMO.
I read this and it all points to UR as the logical step into the new covenant. "I will remember your sins no more"

Anyway.. Great post.
Hey Kat....as I have moved deeper into Preterism, pushing through so to speak, I have come to learn that although UR may be a possibilty, I don't think the scriptures can elborate on it one way or another. Sure covenant man has been reconciled through Christ, but only was this done within a covenant context. However, because redemption is complete within a covenant context, who is to say what power of salvific candor does not exist outside of this biological life? I don't think the Bible elaborates on that all. However, it is clear that me, you and every other Christian out there, "already" has attained the ressurection of the dead. We have been resurrected into eternal life. For someone outside of the covenant, their sins no more, does not apply. According to the covenant with Israel or Adam for that matter (highly debatable in circles) they had no sins or transgressions. Further to that as I understand it… Israel's promised resurrection [Acts 23:6; 24:15; 26:7] was all about the covenant renewal of God's priesthood, a priesthood ordained to serve as God's light to those unfamiliar with His grace to all [Acts 17:27-28; 1Pet 2b-9]; that is, the reconciliation of man as established through Christ's faithfulness to his mission [Lk 19:10; Phil 2:8; Col 1:20] as Israel's redeeming messiah and as in consequence declared to be the world's reconciling Lord [Acts 2:36; 2Cor 5:19].

That "life" continues beyond our temporal realm isn't in my estimation under question – whether many of the biblical passages typically assumed to be speaking of such are really doing that is IMO worth a second look. With that, and as far as I am concerned, the price was paid, for everyone. Our job is to tell people that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2011, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,530,305 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hey Kat....as I have moved deeper into Preterism, pushing through so to speak, I have come to learn that although UR may be a possibilty, I don't think the scriptures can elborate on it one way or another. Sure covenant man has been reconciled through Christ, but only was this done within a covenant context. However, because redemption is complete within a covenant context, who is to say what power of salvific candor does not exist outside of this biological life? I don't think the Bible elaborates on that all. However, it is clear that me, you and every other Christian out there, "already" has attained the ressurection of the dead. We have been resurrected into eternal life. For someone outside of the covenant, their sins no more, does not apply. According to the covenant with Israel or Adam for that matter (highly debatable in circles) they had no sins or transgressions. Further to that as I understand it… Israel's promised resurrection [Acts 23:6; 24:15; 26:7] was all about the covenant renewal of God's priesthood, a priesthood ordained to serve as God's light to those unfamiliar with His grace to all [Acts 17:27-28; 1Pet 2b-9]; that is, the reconciliation of man as established through Christ's faithfulness to his mission [Lk 19:10; Phil 2:8; Col 1:20] as Israel's redeeming messiah and as in consequence declared to be the world's reconciling Lord [Acts 2:36; 2Cor 5:19].

That "life" continues beyond our temporal realm isn't in my estimation under question – whether many of the biblical passages typically assumed to be speaking of such are really doing that is IMO worth a second look. With that, and as far as I am concerned, the price was paid, for everyone. Our job is to tell people that.
Strictly covenantally speaking, Jesus mediated on behalf of all men... Therefore as a lawyer can mediate on behalf of his client so Christ signed for all men... Who does that leave outside the covenant?

And I agree.... There isn't much info on any sort of life beyond this...only speculation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-28-2011, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,436,320 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Strictly covenantally speaking, Jesus mediated on behalf of all men... Therefore as a lawyer can mediate on behalf of his client so Christ signed for all men... Who does that leave outside the covenant?
Hey Kat...he mediated the covenant between Israel and God. It was the Death that separated them from real spiritual and covenant life. That death, as far as the scripture is concerned with anyone outside of covenant life, is moot IMO. Because of that covenant, as was Adam's responsibility, and so was Israel's is to be a light to the world apart from Israel's ethnicity, so that they can too know God, so in return, now the church is charged with that responsibility. However, in turn, Christ brought salvation to the entire world through His death/resurrection and Israel's resurrection....Heb 9:26, Eze 37 and Hosea 2 and this we cannot argue. A friend of mine put it well:

The force of biblical REDEMPTION is towards Israel – microcosmic.
The focus of biblical RECONCILIATION is towards humanity – macrocosmic.
The fullness of biblical SALVATION is upon those called to minister – God's change agents in a changing world; those who are saved to serve.

Blessings...here is more on the subject
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2011, 01:54 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,530,305 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hey Kat...he mediated the covenant between Israel and God. It was the Death that separated them from real spiritual and covenant life. That death, as far as the scripture is concerned with anyone outside of covenant life, is moot IMO. Because of that covenant, as was Adam's responsibility, and so was Israel's is to be a light to the world apart from Israel's ethnicity, so that they can too know God, so in return, now the church is charged with that responsibility. However, in turn, Christ brought salvation to the entire world through His death/resurrection and Israel's resurrection....Heb 9:26, Eze 37 and Hosea 2 and this we cannot argue. A friend of mine put it well:

The force of biblical REDEMPTION is towards Israel – microcosmic.
The focus of biblical RECONCILIATION is towards humanity – macrocosmic.
The fullness of biblical SALVATION is upon those called to minister – God's change agents in a changing world; those who are saved to serve.

Blessings...here is more on the subject
Those who are called were of Isreal. I agree. However...The fact is salvation was given to the world not just a chosen few. There was a certain few chosen to teach But you seem to divert from the covenantal promises when you say only the chosen few are saved. Salvation is complete, and there is no more sacrifice for sin. Who does that leave unsaved?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2011, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,436,320 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Those who are called were of Isreal. I agree. However...The fact is salvation was given to the world not just a chosen few. There was a certain few chosen to teach But you seem to divert from the covenantal promises when you say only the chosen few are saved. Salvation is complete, and there is no more sacrifice for sin. Who does that leave unsaved?
Kat...I think you are misunderstanding me. It isn't about the chosen few..that's a done deal.....election = Israel..Paul, Peter, James etc. It is about the covenant. That is what has been recitified. The agreement between God and man = Kosmos John 3:16. To be "saved" is to enter into covenant. The covenant is open for everyne. No beggarly elements. Before you had to cut your skin, now you "only" have to cut your heart.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2011, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,530,305 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Kat...I think you are misunderstanding me. It isn't about the chosen few..that's a done deal.....election = Israel..Paul, Peter, James etc. It is about the covenant. That is what has been recitified. The agreement between God and man = Kosmos John 3:16. To be "saved" is to enter into covenant. The covenant is open for everyne. No beggarly elements. Before you had to cut your skin, now you "only" have to cut your heart.
Sorry sciota... We agree in general about the topic of the thread. I don't mean to go off on a tangent so I'll just say that I believe salvation is grace. That we are saved from our own guilty conscience so we can live freely as God intended. Those born under the old covenant needed this absolving of sin to understand the freedom we have, yet to a gentile it is more about forgiving oneself and passing on the love, so to speak. There really is no need for us now to 'be saved' because grace was given before the world began according to scripture.

Anyway, maybe we should agree to disagree on that to keep the thread intact?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2011, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,436,320 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Sorry sciota... We agree in general about the topic of the thread. I don't mean to go off on a tangent so I'll just say that I believe salvation is grace. That we are saved from our own guilty conscience so we can live freely as God intended. Those born under the old covenant needed this absolving of sin to understand the freedom we have, yet to a gentile it is more about forgiving oneself and passing on the love, so to speak. There really is no need for us now to 'be saved' because grace was given before the world began according to scripture.

Anyway, maybe we should agree to disagree on that to keep the thread intact?
Actually...I agree completely with your assement, just probably not in the same vein so to speak....being "saved" in Biblical terms was generally applied in various ways...from darkness, or from wrath/judgement etc....I feel as if salvation from darkness is what is ongoing, since from the wrath is moot, being that we are both preterists, and that was pasado.

About Grace and the universality of it, apart from faith...is too a complex subject, that I will tackle in the coming weeks over at my site. I will post here again so that we can interact with it when it is completed. You may be surprised at my conclusion, or be it, elated
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:49 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top