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Ok...I will bite even though it is waaaaay off topic....
I would have too...
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And your Biblical evidence of God not wanting to go into great detail is where?
Isa 9:7 bye bye your premise of a terminate church age....there are many more, but this should suffice...for now...oh...Rev 14:6 are others...but we will let that rest for the moment.
Harpazo - caught up - a common phrase used in the ancient world for those who would be raised from death into life, simply put, the ancients believed that in death...there was sleep....being caught up per 1 Thess 4 is simply that those who were alive - AND REMAIN - would be caught up, that is when they die, they wouldn't have to wait. No rapture - false doctrine is what the rapture is...it is completely contrary to the culture in which Paul was writing his letter to the Thessalonians who were concerned for those that HAD ALREADY PERISHED in DEATH. They worried about themselves too, in that if they would survive death. Paul comforted them and said when Christ comes, they too, along with the dead, would inherit the ability to overcome death. That's it.
Not true, it is mentioned everywhere...starting with Gen 48 to Romans 11 and onwards.
No they don't....the second coming and the resurrection of the dead, i.e. Luke 21, 1 John 3, Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15 are synonomous in timing and place. The second coming is accompanied with:
The Parousia of Christ
The resurrection of the dead
The Great white throne judgement
These three events all happen at one time, with the physical outward manifestation of what we know of as the destruction of the temple and the hazing of the city, Jerusalem...hence Matt 24 when shall these things be? Referred to the not one stone...this generation...soon and at hand. Rev 1-22...etc.
Refer above.
No you haven't, instead you have shown your illiteracy to grammatico-historical hermenutics. You are all over the place in an eisegetical manner. You are imposing your pressupopostionis into the text which are unwarranted and irresponsible.
Valley of Meggiddo, a place where the Romans slaguhtered many Jews. That battle is over...the lampstand that was withtin Israel as a covenant church Rev 18:23 was removed from them, the voice of the bridegroom, i.e. God/Christ found in them no more...etc etc etc.
We must remember that the book of Revelation was written in a specific style. Its genre is referred to as apocalyptic literature. It is highly symbolic. In Revelation, Babylon is symbolic of Jerusalem, which is being destroyed. The original Babylon was taken when Persian armies diverted the Euphrates River allowing them to enter the city. Daniel says only this:
“That same night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was slain. So Darius the Mede received the kingdom at about the age of sixty-two” (Dan. 5:30-31).
MacArthur explains how this was accomplished:
One ancient account alleged that Persia’s General Ugbaru had troops dig a trench to divert and thus lower the waters of the Euphrates River. Since the river flowed through the city of Babylon, the lowered water enabled besiegers to unexpectedly invade via the waterway under the thick walls and reach the palace before the city was aware. The end then came quickly, as guards, Belshazzar, and others were slain on Oct. 16, 539 b.c. (John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible, NASB ed. [Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 2006], Dan. 5:30)
The reference in Revelation is reminiscent of this event, but in the new context refers to the armies of Titus destroying Jerusalem (spiritual Babylon..i.e Rev 11:8). It is a mistake to take all this literally. The prophecy is simply using symbols that would have been well understood in the first century to dramatically portray the destruction of “Babylon the Great”..... Jerusalem.
Oriental....?? You mean Asian people...oriental food...Mike...you have no Bilblical support for this premise.
I have and will...just becuase you want to blame someone else for you faults and not own up to them yourself, is you perrogative, but when you spew garbage that has ZERO biblical support to folks wanting to know...I am here to help...what are you going to do...tell them they are going to burn in some fantasy netherworld called Hell? Hell doesn't exist Mike....Gehenna and the Lake of Fire is literal, physical and real, and the events of 66-70 AD in the country of Judea is which it was...not some ethereal fairy tale...that you purport.
Nope...the King of Tyre is the subject and the only subject. They ain't my schaolrs....many of them were dispy scholars....folks you use in your "futurist" defense. Baby or bathwater...which one?
Bara - prepared - never has anything to do with creation ex nihilo
Adam was prepared for priestly service Gen 2:15
Adversary...nothing to do with an angelic being.
Biblically prove this please.
Eisegesis. Fantasy...prove it, Biblically...I will even take 2nd temple work as well as the Talmud and others....
Elect angels? Where is this in scripture Mike...? No where...that's what I thought. Fantasy, more so than ever before.
WoW! Outstanding....IMHO.
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Michael = Christ See: Dan 12:1; 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Jude 9
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7, 8)
Michael is not mentioned often the Bible but, by comparing texts, we can learn his more common identity. We begin with the little book of Jude:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Jude's purpose in this verse is to condemn those who teach grace as license (Jude 4) and who criticize authority (Jude 8). He takes the dispute with the devil as an example, revealing other information that is of particular interest to us. So Michael is also the archangel. The prefix "arch-" means to be "first" or "reigning over." This agrees with verse 7 where Michael is commander of the angels.
Next let's look at a verse describing the archangel. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout [command], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thess. 4:16)
So the archangel, whom we saw in Jude as also Michael, calls the dead to life. Only one person has been given that authority.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Matt. 5:25-29)
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25)
"I [Jesus] am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [the grave] and of death." (Rev. 1:18)
In other words, only Jesus Christ will call the dead, so he is the archangel in 1st Thessalonians 4:16, 17 and He is Michael who calls Moses to life in Jude. And He is Michael who, with His angels, cast Satan out of heaven! (Compare Song of Solomon 5:10) which harmonizes with our seeing Him as head of the angels.
In Joshua 5:15, Christ identifies Himself as the captain of the Lord's host. He was the captain of the angels of heaven. They are the Lord's army (Rev. 19:14). Furthermore, He would not have accepted Joshua's worship if He had been an ordinary angel (see Joshua 5). Thus again He is the archangel, Michael.
Revelation is a book of symbols. Whenever we read Revelation we should be asking ourselves, “what do these symbols mean?” We should be cautious of assuming that some has the same meaning in Revelation as it might elsewhere.
Elsewhere in the Bible, “heaven” often refers to the places where God dwells...that is in men Rev 21:3-5. In Revelation, it might not mean the same thing. For example, the opening verse: “a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun” (Rev 12:1). Now there isn’t really a woman clothed with the sun (that’s a symbol), and so the “heaven” in which this sign appeared was probably not literal heaven, but symbolic heaven of the dwelling of God, that is with men in Christ.
So what might “heaven” mean in this context? Some interpreters think that “heaven” refers to the political heights...rightly so...2 Peter 3:10 referes to the elements - stochien - a term used in Temple worhship. To be “cast down from heaven” would mean to lose your position of political power, in which the children iof the devil did so in 70 AD, beginning at the cross...finished in 70 with the obliteration fo the Heavens and Earth, the Holy of Holies,where God dwelled with the High Priest, in their temple.
“Heaven” refers to those who belong to God (cf. “our brothers” Rev 12:10...kings and priests Rev 1:6 in tribulation). They were previously “accused day and night before our God” by the Dragon (i.e. by sin), but that “accuser” has now been “cast down”. That is, believers are no longer accused in the presence of God by their sinful nature because that has now been atoned for. “They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb” (Rev 12:11).
End of. You are barking up the wrong tree.
Wow.... The only thing I would clarify is that "angel" in the Greek means messenger and is representing Jesus' followers, disciples, etc. Not actual winged creatures.
Thank the Lord for Mike 555. If more biblically sound scholars like him would visit these pages, would make more forays onto this page. I never knew there was so much biblical goofiness going on in religious circles until I visited this site.
Ok...I will bite even though it is waaaaay off topic....
You were the one who brought up the subject of young earth creationism and dispensations in post #37 with this statement: 'The dispensational futurist/young earth creationist views within the church is going to die far faster than most think.'
I simply replyed to it.
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And your Biblical evidence of God not wanting to go into great detail is where?
All the Bible mentions about original creation is Gen 1:1. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:2 talks about the earth becoming formless and void. It wasn't created that way.
As it isn't the topic of the thread, I will direct whoever may be interested in the subject to this study by Arthur C. Custance. Without Form and Void - Frontpage
Sciotamicks, you talk about showing Biblical evidence. If I remember correctly, you have said in another thread that Adam was not the first man. The Bible says that Adam was the first man. Therefore, show YOUR Biblical evidence by which you state that Adam was not the first man, when the Bible says that he was.
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Isa 9:7 bye bye your premise of a terminate church age....there are many more, but this should suffice...for now...oh...Rev 14:6 are others...but we will let that rest for the moment.
Isa 9:7 states 'There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom. To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness Form then on and forevermore...
This has to do with Christ's reign both in the Millennium and His eternal reign. It has nothing to do with the fact that the dispensation of the Church will end with the rapture of the church.
Rev 14:6 has to do with the gospel being preached to the inhabitants of the earth during the tribulation. The church will have been taken up (raptured) into heaven prior to the beginning of the tribulation.
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Harpazo - caught up - a common phrase used in the ancient world for those who would be raised from death into life, simply put, the ancients believed that in death...there was sleep....being caught up per 1 Thess 4 is simply that those who were alive - AND REMAIN - would be caught up, that is when they die, they wouldn't have to wait. No rapture - false doctrine is what the rapture is...it is completely contrary to the culture in which Paul was writing his letter to the Thessalonians who were concerned for those that HAD ALREADY PERISHED in DEATH. They worried about themselves too, in that if they would survive death. Paul comforted them and said when Christ comes, they too, along with the dead, would inherit the ability to overcome death. That's it.
To the contrary. Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the rapture, but afterwards false teachers came and had caused the Thessalonians to worry that they were in the tribulation. So in 2 Thessalonians Paul writes to ease their minds and make it clear that the church must first be removed before the man of lawlessness (the antichrist) can be revealed. A few months ago, I did this thread on the subject. The Rapture of the church precedes the Day of the Lord
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Not true, it is mentioned everywhere...starting with Gen 48 to Romans 11 and onwards.
The dispensation of the church is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. Again, it was a mystery kept under wraps until Christ made the first mention of it in Matthew 16:18.
The dispensation of the church is the mystery spoken of in Ephesians 3:3, and which in Eph 3:5 is said, 'which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Paul states again in Eph 3:9 'and to bring to light what is the administration (oikonomia) of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things.
The dispensation of the church is the mystery. The mystery being the new relationship during the church-age, between believing Jews and Gentles in one body. This was completely unknown before it was revealed first by Christ and then by the Apostles.
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No they don't....the second coming and the resurrection of the dead, i.e. Luke 21, 1 John 3, Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15 are synonomous in timing and place. The second coming is accompanied with:
The Parousia of Christ
The resurrection of the dead
The Great white throne judgement
These three events all happen at one time, with the physical outward manifestation of what we know of as the destruction of the temple and the hazing of the city, Jerusalem...hence Matt 24 when shall these things be? Referred to the not one stone...this generation...soon and at hand. Rev 1-22...etc.
No, they do NOT happen at the same time. The resurrection of the dead occurs in stages. The rapture of the church ends the church-age. Then the seven year tribulation begins shortly afterwards. Then Christ returns at the end of the tribulation and the church returns with Christ. Also at this time, the tribulational martyrs and Old Testament saints will be resurrected. The Millennial Kingdom commences at this time and at the end of the Millennium the resurrection of all unbelievers and the great white throne judgment takes place.
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No you haven't, instead you have shown your illiteracy to grammatico-historical hermenutics. You are all over the place in an eisegetical manner. You are imposing your pressupopostionis into the text which are unwarranted and irresponsible.
No Sciotamicks. Once again, you throw around words like grammatico-historical hermenutics, and eisegetics in an attempt to dicredit those who disagree with you. You hide behind such tactics. Yet, to sustain the false teaching of Preterism you of neccessity have no choice but to employ eisegetics. You twist and distort Scripture to fit your preconcieved beliefs.You are attempting to cast upon others what you yourself are guilty of.
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Valley of Meggiddo, a place where the Romans slaguhtered many Jews. That battle is over...the lampstand that was withtin Israel as a covenant church Rev 18:23 was removed from them, the voice of the bridegroom, i.e. God/Christ found in them no more...etc etc etc.
No again Sciotamicks. You're talking more preteristic nonsense. The battle of Armegeddon has not taken place. The battle of Armegeddon is the battle which will climax the tribulation and which will involve the armies of the world attempting to fight Jesus Christ Himself when He returns to defend Jerusalem from those armies.
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We must remember that the book of Revelation was written in a specific style. Its genre is referred to as apocalyptic literature. It is highly symbolic. In Revelation, Babylon is symbolic of Jerusalem, which is being destroyed. The original Babylon was taken when Persian armies diverted the Euphrates River allowing them to enter the city. Daniel says only this:
“That same night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was slain. So Darius the Mede received the kingdom at about the age of sixty-two” (Dan. 5:30-31).
MacArthur explains how this was accomplished:
One ancient account alleged that Persia’s General Ugbaru had troops dig a trench to divert and thus lower the waters of the Euphrates River. Since the river flowed through the city of Babylon, the lowered water enabled besiegers to unexpectedly invade via the waterway under the thick walls and reach the palace before the city was aware. The end then came quickly, as guards, Belshazzar, and others were slain on Oct. 16, 539 b.c. (John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible, NASB ed. [Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 2006], Dan. 5:30)
The reference in Revelation is reminiscent of this event, but in the new context refers to the armies of Titus destroying Jerusalem (spiritual Babylon..i.e Rev 11:8). It is a mistake to take all this literally. The prophecy is simply using symbols that would have been well understood in the first century to dramatically portray the destruction of “Babylon the Great”..... Jerusalem.
Babylon is not Jerusalem. Babylon is to be destroyed forever. Jerusalem will exist forever. Zechariah 14 speaks of Jerusalem during the Millennial kingdom.
Whatever city is referred to as Babylon, it is destroyed in one hour and its destruction is mourned by the world (Rev 18:10-11). The world on the other hand is trying to destroy Jerusalem. That attempt will come to a head at the battle of Armegeddon at the end of the tribulation.
The purpose of the book of Revelation is to reveal events which will take place immediately before, during, and following the second coming of Christ. Of course it uses symbolic lanquage. But the symbolism is speaking of literal things which could only be described in symbolic language.
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Oriental....?? You mean Asian people...oriental food...Mike...you have no Bilblical support for this premise.
It is simply a reference to people from the east. The Biblical reference is Revelation 16:12.
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I have and will...just becuase you want to blame someone else for you faults and not own up to them yourself, is you perrogative, but when you spew garbage that has ZERO biblical support to folks wanting to know...I am here to help...what are you going to do...tell them they are going to burn in some fantasy netherworld called Hell? Hell doesn't exist Mike....Gehenna and the Lake of Fire is literal, physical and real, and the events of 66-70 AD in the country of Judea is which it was...not some ethereal fairy tale...that you purport.
Your first sentence has absolutely nothing to do with anything that I have said. You are lashing out because I comdemn preterism.
You have adopted a new pet term with your 'zero Biblical support' line. It is you who have no Biblical support for preterism or for denying the existence of Satan. The only one you are helping is Satan who has deceived you as he has deceived so many others.
The lake of fire is to be the eternal home of all who die never having believed in Christ. The Scriptures are clear on this, and this has all been gone over time and time again in various threads on this forum.
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Nope...the King of Tyre is the subject and the only subject. They ain't my schaolrs....many of them were dispy scholars....folks you use in your "futurist" defense. Baby or bathwater...which one?
And yet you attempt to use them to bolster your argument. Ezekiel is speaking of both the human king of Tyre and of Satan who is the power behing the throne. Because you have chosen to not believe in the existence of Satan, you have no choice but to deny the duel reference of the passage.
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Bara - prepared - never has anything to do with creation ex nihilo
Yes, Bara does have to do with creation ex nihilo - out of nothing. As I recall, the extra-biblical book, 'the Shepherd of Hermes', twice mentions the universe coming into existence from nothing. But that was not my point concerning Adam. Although it is true that Adam's soul was created out of nothing, his body was formed from the dust of the ground. The point being that Adam, and the woman, were not born. All other human beings were born, including the human king of Tyre.
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Adversary...nothing to do with an angelic being.
You have already been shown from Revelation 12 that Satan is a real being, and that he is an angel.
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Biblically prove this please.
Biblically prove that all angels were created. Sure.
Ps 148:2 Praise Him, all His angels; praise Him, all His hosts! 3 Praise Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all stars of light! 4 Praise Him, highest heavens, and the waters that are above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, for He commanded and they were created.
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Eisegesis. Fantasy...prove it, Biblically...I will even take 2nd temple work as well as the Talmud and others....
On the ark of the Covenant two cherubim hovered above the mercy seat facing each other. This was a representation of the reality in heaven of the cherubim guarding the throne of God. As Ezekiel 28:14 states of Satan before his rebellion, ''You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God.
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Elect angels? Where is this in scripture Mike...? No where...that's what I thought. Fantasy, more so than ever before.
1 Tim 5:21. 'I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ and of of His chosen angels...
Don't avoid the question I asked you by trying to make an issue out of my use of the word 'elect' angels. Do you believe in angels at all?
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Michael = Christ See: Dan 12:1; 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Jude 9
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (Rev. 12:7, 8)
Michael is not mentioned often the Bible but, by comparing texts, we can learn his more common identity. We begin with the little book of Jude:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst [dared] not bring against him a railing [slanderous] accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Jude's purpose in this verse is to condemn those who teach grace as license (Jude 4) and who criticize authority (Jude 8). He takes the dispute with the devil as an example, revealing other information that is of particular interest to us. So Michael is also the archangel. The prefix "arch-" means to be "first" or "reigning over." This agrees with verse 7 where Michael is commander of the angels.
Next let's look at a verse describing the archangel. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout [command], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thess. 4:16)
So the archangel, whom we saw in Jude as also Michael, calls the dead to life. Only one person has been given that authority.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Matt. 5:25-29)
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25)
"I [Jesus] am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [the grave] and of death." (Rev. 1:18)
In other words, only Jesus Christ will call the dead, so he is the archangel in 1st Thessalonians 4:16, 17 and He is Michael who calls Moses to life in Jude. And He is Michael who, with His angels, cast Satan out of heaven! (Compare Song of Solomon 5:10) which harmonizes with our seeing Him as head of the angels.
In Joshua 5:15, Christ identifies Himself as the captain of the Lord's host. He was the captain of the angels of heaven. They are the Lord's army (Rev. 19:14). Furthermore, He would not have accepted Joshua's worship if He had been an ordinary angel (see Joshua 5). Thus again He is the archangel, Michael.
Revelation is a book of symbols. Whenever we read Revelation we should be asking ourselves, “what do these symbols mean?” We should be cautious of assuming that some has the same meaning in Revelation as it might elsewhere.
Elsewhere in the Bible, “heaven” often refers to the places where God dwells...that is in men Rev 21:3-5. In Revelation, it might not mean the same thing. For example, the opening verse: “a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun” (Rev 12:1). Now there isn’t really a woman clothed with the sun (that’s a symbol), and so the “heaven” in which this sign appeared was probably not literal heaven, but symbolic heaven of the dwelling of God, that is with men in Christ.
So what might “heaven” mean in this context? Some interpreters think that “heaven” refers to the political heights...rightly so...2 Peter 3:10 referes to the elements - stochien - a term used in Temple worhship. To be “cast down from heaven” would mean to lose your position of political power, in which the children iof the devil did so in 70 AD, beginning at the cross...finished in 70 with the obliteration fo the Heavens and Earth, the Holy of Holies,where God dwelled with the High Priest, in their temple.
“Heaven” refers to those who belong to God (cf. “our brothers” Rev 12:10...kings and priests Rev 1:6 in tribulation). They were previously “accused day and night before our God” by the Dragon (i.e. by sin), but that “accuser” has now been “cast down”. That is, believers are no longer accused in the presence of God by their sinful nature because that has now been atoned for. “They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb” (Rev 12:11).
End of. You are barking up the wrong tree.
No Sciotamicks. Jesus Christ is not Michael the archangel. I think that this is a belief held by the Jehovah's Witness'. Jesus Christ is not a created angel. Now Jesus appeared as the angel of the Lord in His pre-incarnate appearances. But that was not a created angel. Jesus has always existed as God. When He came into the world as a man, He became the unique Person of the Universe. Fully God and fully man. He was never a created angel.
As for heaven, the Bible speaks of three heavens.
1] The first heaven is the atmosphere. 1 Kings 14:11.
2] The second heaven is the stellar universe. Deuteronomy 4:19.
3]The third heaven is the throne room of God. 2 Cor 12:2-4; Eph 4:10.
Sciotamicks, your beliefs seem to be that all prophecy has been fulfilled (preterism), that there is no hell, that Satan does not exist, that Jesus was Michael the archangel and therefore a created being, that the universe was not created out of nothing, and that Adam was not the first man. You are wrong on all counts.
For reference purposes, my previous posts on this thread are #27, 36, 41, and 57.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-13-2011 at 12:46 AM..
Thank the Lord for Mike 555. If more biblically sound scholars like him would visit these pages, would make more forays onto this page. I never knew there was so much biblical goofiness going on in religious circles until I visited this site.
It is good to see someone here go farther and deeper into the knowledge of Hawyaw...Be warned though, with knowledge comes sorrow...
Never heard of Hawyaw before. The knowledge of the truth of God produces life and peace. But the knowledge of sin and death brings sorrow.
In fact, to be distressed in a godly way causes people to change the way they think and act and leads them to be saved. No one can regret that. But the distress that the world causes brings only death. - 2Cor. 7:10
All the Bible mentions about original creation is Gen 1:1. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:2 talks about the earth becoming formless and void. It wasn't created that way.
For my people [is] foolish, they have not known me; they [are] sottish children, and they have none understanding: they [are] wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.
Context is Israel.
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Sciotamicks, you talk about showing Biblical evidence. If I remember correctly, you have said in another thread that Adam was not the first man. The Bible says that Adam was the first man. Therefore, show YOUR Biblical evidence by which you state that Adam was not the first man, when the Bible says that he was.
Sure it does, if you read it in a wooden fashion. I will point you to:
You miss very importnant phrases and words that were common in the ancient world...for example...beast, birds, creepies, etc were commonly used in the ancient world to denote other people outside of the tribe...but then again...why would you care, you have an agenda, and you don't want your little bubble to be burst up....next...Cain's wife, and the fear of Cain from other people after his expulsion from his family....after Seth, Adam had other sons and daughters, not before Seth, Cain was expelled before Seth...but then again, you never knew this because you never bothered bursting that little bubble you have created for yourself.
Wooden and literal interpretations.....
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Isa 9:7 states 'There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom. To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness Form then on and forevermore...
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This has to do with Christ's reign both in the Millennium and His eternal reign. It has nothing to do with the fact that the dispensation of the Church will end with the rapture of the church.
You are wrong. On the government of Christ's shoulder there is no end...read that...no end...that is the church of Christianity has no end...to establish His reign that is reigning over what?...his church for ever. You have NO Biblical proof other wise.
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Rev 14:6
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has to do with the gospel being preached to the inhabitants of the earth during the tribulation. The church will have been taken up (raptured) into heaven prior to the beginning of the tribulation.
Let me help you....And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
There is no "during the tribulation" in the text....let me help you again Mike:
See there...no tribulation again...stop putting your own words into the text. Guilty man as charged.
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To the contrary. Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the rapture, but afterwards false teachers came and had caused the Thessalonians to worry that they were in the tribulation. So in 2 Thessalonians Paul writes to ease their minds and make it clear that the church must first be removed before the man of lawlessness (the antichrist) can be revealed.
Wrong again:
ἁρπαγησόμεθα - shall be caught up - First Person Future Passive Indicative Plural
Paul writes that we will be ἁρπαγησόμεθαin the clouds in 1 Thessalonians 4.17. I believe he is applying imagery from Daniel 7.13-15 to indicate Christ is the returning son of man figure.
N.T. Wright sees three images behind Paul’s words:
(1) Moses coming down from Sinai where we have a trumpet and a loud voice.
(2) “Daniel 7, in which the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds to sit with God in glory.”
(3) When emperors visit colonies within the empire and “the citizens of the country would go to meet him at some distance from the city” in order to welcome him as ruler.
N.T. Wright, Surprised by Hope, 132.
We have two intertextual echoes and one historical antecedent that give context to 1 Thess. 4.17. So our being “caught up” to meet Christ has more to do with Dan. 7 imagery of the saints victoriously joining Christ in his descent upon evil as well as the Parousia concept in the ancient world of the people of a colony welcoming their ruling emperor.
In the ancient world, it was common to see "caught up" language is common in Greco-Roman epitaphs from burial memorials, saying something along the lines of "caught up in death." Among the pagans, there was virtually no belief of life after death. In fact, among the Roman upper classes, this belief in resurrection put Christianity in the realm of fantasy; perhaps, this is why Festus declared: "Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad." Acts 26:24
William Barclay (The Letters to the Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians,p. 203) quotes ancient philosophers in the subject of dying: "Aeschylus wrote, ‘Once a man dies there is no resurrection.' Theocritus wrote, ‘There is hope for those who are alive, but those who have died are without hope.' Catullus wrote, ‘When once our brief light sets, there is one perpetual night through which we must sleep.' On their tombstones grim epitaphs were carved. ‘I was not; I became; I am not; I care not.' One of the most pathetic papyrus letters that has come down to us is a letter of sympathy which runs like this. ‘Irene to Taonnophris and Philo, good comfort. I was as sorry and wept over the departed one as I wept for Didymas. And all things whatsoever were fitting, I did, and all mine, Epaphroditus and Thermouthion and Philion and Appollonius and Plantas. But nevertheless against such things one can do nothing. Therefore comfort ye one another.'" cf. Col. 2:8
Paul's use is to say they are "caught up" to the highest form of life, instead of death, contrasting it with what would have been known as a common euphemism for dying. So it would seem that Paul's message is not really referring to any intricate details of the catching-up, but rather contrasting the supposed finality of the catching-up of death with the hope those who are alive have of being caught up into eternal life with the Lord. By the use of "we," Paul wasn't necessarily stating that he would be caught up in the rapture. In Phil. 3:10-11, Paul desired to "attain to the resurrection from the dead." Later in this epistle, Paul wrote, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him" (1 Thess 5:10). When writing, Paul uses "we" to identify with all Christians at the time and preceding that, and quite possibly, confirming such an experience for those to follow 1 Cor 15:55,57
The issue of preceding "those who are asleep" was obviously of great concern to the Thessalonians. They may have thought...."Would those Christians who preceded us in death truly be "left behind?" Paul wrote definitively that the dead in Christ will rise first . John 5:28-29
This makes much more sense, since the surrounding context of the passage seems to be Paul addressing a concern the Thessalonians had regarding what happened to those who died before Christ's return. Apparently, they were afraid those who had died were dead forever, with no resurrection. Paul's intent is not to set a pre or post-trib or whatever trib doctrine, but to comfort the Thessalonians and to teach them of the certainty of final resurrection for those who have died as believers. To try and set a timeline, or even a relative timeline, is warranted by the passage. Though if anything, I think it's clear that if the passage sets a relative timeline, it says that the coming of Christ, the resurrection, and the "catching-up" all happen in very close temporal proximity to Paul's letter and said "end" of 1 Cor 15:24. As Preterists, this is around the year 70 AD. Let's read the passage again:
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16-17)
This is often cited as proof text for a millenialist rapture, however Paul was not speaking of a literal event where all true believers will be caught up physio-spiritually to meet Jesus in the air. Paul was definitively referencing the political and military custom where citizens would leave the security of their walled city to "Go out and meet" visiting generals, kings and dignitaries. They would do so unarmed as a gesture of subservience and then escort the dignitary into the city as an honored guest.
Paul's statement lines up perfectly with Revelation.
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2
In the NT it is clear that Christ will come once and then those who wait for Him will escort him back to earth as a honored guest, transforming the church into the heavenly Jerusalem. Rapture theology is also based on the several passages where Christ speaks of one being taken and another being left behind.
I tell you, on that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken, the other left. And there will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left. Luke 17:34-25
Rapture theologists use this passage outside of it's context. These lines are part of a larger discourse about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. Besides, Jesus prefaces his statement about being taken and being left behind several verses earlier by saying...
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man; they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up to the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Similarly, as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; on the day when Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. So it will be on the day the Son of Man is revealed.Luke 17:26-30
We see the same imagery as shown thus far which Paul is leaning on in Phil 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly bwait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
Don’t misread the statement that our citizenship is “in heaven”. That doesn’t mean we must “go” there to get it. It is obvious that even in this passage, like the others we have mentioned, resurrection is the focus and if resurrection is the focus then we do not regain our bodies to “go”...but is focused on reality and spirit-life in the physical world.
Several key passages are now to be analyzed in lieu of our focal point.
Describing the vast majority who "heareth the Word of the Kingdom, and understandeth it not" (Matt 13:19), Satan "catcheth away [Greek, harpazo] that which was sown in his heart" (Matthew 13:19). The events surrounding the Rapture are by stealth to the ungodly, i.e., the "Day of the LORD so cometh as a thief in the night" (1Thess 5:2), but not to the Godly. "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" 1 Thess 5:4.
"Harpazo" is used to describe the great multitudes of people who were ready to "come and take Him [Jesus] by force [harpazo], to make Him a king" (John 6:15). Though they had the base design of wanting to force Jesus to be their benefactor for selfish reasons, it does remind us that the LORD will take His own by force for His own pleasure. "Thou art worthy, O LORD, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created" (Revelation 4:11). It is the pleasure of our King to rapture His people, that "where [King Jesus is], there ye may be also" John 14:3.
The Good Shepherd teaches us that He cares for us as His sheep. "I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Compare the LORD Jesus Christ as the Good Shepherd as opposed to a "hireling" (John 10:12). "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth [Greek, harpazo] them, and scattereth the sheep" (John 10:12). Again, Satan will catch those who "received not the love of the Truth" (2 Thess 2:10), and these will "be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" 2 Thess 2:12.
Continuing with His analogy of Shepherd and sheep, Jesus assures us that no one is capable of seizing us by force out of His hand. "28 And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck [Greek, harpazo] them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck [Greek, harpazo] them out of My Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). In this instance, it is with great relief that we are not snatched away-- by Satan. "The Name of the LORD is a Strong Tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe" Proverbs 18:10.
Now let's read very carefully here about Phillip:
Philip the Evangelist was directed by the angel of the LORD to go to Gaza. He met an Ethiopian, who was a chief officer of Queen Candace, reading Isaiah 53.
"6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth" (Isaiah 53:6-7).
Expounding these Scriptures concerning Jesus the Messiah, the Ethiopian eunuch believed, and was baptized. "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the LORD caught away [Greek, harpazo] Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing" (Acts 8:39). In this instance, Philip was caught away to other earthly employments. About twenty years later, the Apostle Paul stayed over at Philip's house in Caesarea (Acts 21:8). But, to be caught away by the LORD means to be repositioned for a higher service.
So then, what do we do with the part in 1 Thess. 4.17 where we are “caught up”. Where do we take it, apart from it's linguistic, cultural, and/or historical context? It almost seems like resurrection could be so we “go to heaven” where Christ has been. I think this misses Paul’s point and it ignores the Johannine and Lukan contributions to our eschatology that we have noted above.
ἅμα. Does this (A) emphasize the σὺν: ‘together with’ (NIV), or (B) emphasize the unity of the περιλειπόμενοι, or (C) state the unity of all the living Christians since that specific event?
shall be caught up (Harpazo) aΊrpa/zw har-pad'-zo
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away
in the clouds (Nephele) nefeΡlh nef-el'-ay
a cloud
used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness
Cloud in this verse is different from "cloud" as we know it. It is meant to represent the Spirit of God as shown above. This is found in Exodus, when a pillar cloud lead the israelites into the wilderness. This was not a "normal" cloud, but the Spirit of God.
to (Eis) meet (Apantesis) a)pa/nthsiv ap-an'-tay-sis the Lord (Kurios) ku/riov koo'-ree-os in (Eis) the air (Aer) aΉh/r ah-ayr'
the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air
As seen here, the "air" means the "air" right above the surface of the earth or denser air, such as above mountain terrain. This matches up with scripture in the Old Testament, that this air, in the clouds, resides in a realm although yet physical in appearance, is none other than the spiritual realm in which God abides. Riding swiftly on the clouds of Heaven....God's spirit sky..
In conclusion, it is hard to interpret this as a voluntary action of the caught up saints, dead or alive. Paul is clear that external force (God) makes it, it is not voluntary decision. The language Paul used was common usage for the ancients when applying a higher spiritual existence that does not necessarily denotes incorporeal living solely, but rather an existence that was shown through various works and historical elements that were concerned with higher, divine service, whether it be in this world, another, or both incorporated together, as such is current with any Christian and their life. Paul exemplifies the act of the chastised bride 2 Cor 11:2…leaving the city walls…prepared for the husband Christ, catching up His bride in consummation. The Parousia (Presence or indwelling of Christ), Marriage, Harpazo, etc…are all part of one grand scheme and panoramic event…the end of the Old Covenant in its entirety….the city walls of the temple fell, and the saints and Christ indwell cohesively in the physical, natural and spiritual dimensions that we call reality…Heaven on Earth….as it is on Earth, it is in Heaven…complete union like "Christ's" resurrected, ascended, and returning/ed body…as the two were indeed compatible…which is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus comes, Christians meet him in the "spirit sky/air" and thus begins the judgements, the wedding feast begins….the marriage, the honeymoon, and for those "who were alive and remain," all the life's toil of endurance, overcoming of "temptations" to sin, throughout the ages to come, unto a world without end, where in the earth abodes forever....are conquered in Christ.
The saints of the first century and those that slept, were indeed caught up, in eternal life and service, and those who eagerly awaited Him, were positioned here on earth into priestly service, for the Lord God, Jesus Christ, seized, from the possibility of the sting of death.
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The dispensation of the church is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. Again, it was a mystery kept under wraps until Christ made the first mention of it in Matthew 16:18.
The dispensation of the church is the mystery spoken of in Ephesians 3:3, and which in Eph 3:5 is said, 'which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Paul states again in Eph 3:9 'and to bring to light what is the administration (oikonomia) of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things.
The dispensation of the church is the mystery. The mystery being the new relationship during the church-age, between believing Jews and Gentles in one body. This was completely unknown before it was revealed first by Christ and then by the Apostles.
The mystery has NOTHING to do with the church as a dispensation. The mystery has everything to do with the grafting in of Gentiles as part of the body of Christ, WITH ISRAEL'S Remnant 12 tribes. Peter went to Judah and preached, Paul went to the empire to bring back the diaspora, fulfilling the OT promise to Israel as a whole and thus complimenting Isa 42:6 as a reality. Fulness of the Gentiles is simply, those Israelites representing the Nations. Read:
In Romans Paul was definitely addressing the Israelites ONLY. But remember how he said in chapter nine that not all Israel was of Israel? That is, not all national Israelites are of the true Israel. So we can at least clear it up that only the elect national Israelites would be saved. Paul said "Even so at this present time." I.e. at the time Paul was writing there was a remnant of the national Israelites who had not yet believed in Christ, thus they were still enemies of those Israelites who had been converted. That is why Paul identified himself prior to his conversion:
Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Acts 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But because he was one of the elect national Israelites, God converted him. And so Romans 11:
Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. {5} Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
The last of the national Israelites who were elect had not yet come to faith in Christ, but that remnant would come before He would destroy Jerusalem.
Romans 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. {12} Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
They were enemies of converted Jews and Gentiles, and they were elect and national Israelites. But they had not yet been converted. But the promise was sure.
Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Even Paul recognized that some of them would be saved. Not all the national Israelites would be saved. Just the elect:
Romans 11:6-9 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. {7} What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded {8} (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. {9} And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
So we have Paul contrasting the elect unbelieving national Israelites versus the non-elect national Israelites. Therefore, here Paul is referring to the elect, yet unbelieving national Israelites:
Romans 11:25-26 So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. {26} And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob."
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Paul says:
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. "As touching the election...(i.e. the yet unconverted elect national Israelites)..." That is the same group as Paul mentioned earlier:
Romans 11:5-7 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. {6} And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. {7} What then?Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
There were the national Israelites who were not elect, and there were the national Israelites who were elect. Only those would be saved, and they are part of the true Israel of God. Paul saw a definite future for the remnant of national Israel who had not yet been converted but who were elect. And they were finally converted before God destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70.
So then, they were enemies while yet in an unconverted state, nevertheless they were elect and would be saved. They were the "all Israel" of which Paul spoke. They were the remnant, the elect, the beloved for the fathers' sakes. The mystery i.e. Rev 10:7
And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not....But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Dealt with the marriage:
Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.
Remember the trumpet:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The mystery is the inclusion of Gentiles into ALL ISRAEL:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Remember earlier I said People were noted as Animal Motifs:
Here the mystery in the OT is explained to the prophets:
Speaking of Israel as a whole...both houses Israel and Judah representing the north and southern kingdoms:
Hos 2 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Next we see after God has united them both:
And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
Turning to Ezekiel 37:
Valley of the dry bones...Israel is about to come alive and be joined as one stick from both houses uniting:
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
Context is Ephraim and Judah both representing the southern and northern kingdom:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
No end Mike...no end.
So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Other peoples.....believing on the lord...here is more:
And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood
Animals eating Christ's blood? Nope....this is Getiles offering up their allegiance to Christ...but you never knew that did you? Because you don't venture out of your doctrinal bubble that keeps you warm and full of milk...eat some meat for once MIKE!
There is more:
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
CF Matt 5:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Christ fulfilled everything Mike. The Law is now observed in our worship of Him.
Let's keep going in Eze 39:
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Compare Joel 2:
And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Now compare Acts 2:
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
Fulfilled in Pentacost.
Read again the mystery in Eze 39:
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Follow closely in Gen 48:
And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Then move to Romans 11:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (Nations - Ethnos) be come in.
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No, they do NOT happen at the same time. The resurrection of the dead occurs in stages. The rapture of the church ends the church-age. Then the seven year tribulation begins shortly afterwards. Then Christ returns at the end of the tribulation and the church returns with Christ. Also at this time, the tribulational martyrs and Old Testament saints will be resurrected. The Millennial Kingdom commences at this time and at the end of the Millennium the resurrection of all unbelievers and the great white throne judgment takes place.
No exegsis here. Hogwash. So was the remainder of some of your thoughts that have zero support, in which YOU HAVE NOT offered.
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Yes, Bara does have to do with creation ex nihilo - out of nothing. As I recall, the extra-biblical book, 'the Shepherd of Hermes', twice mentions the universe coming into existence from nothing. But that was not my point concerning Adam. Although it is true that Adam's soul was created out of nothing, his body was formed from the dust of the ground. The point being that Adam, and the woman, were not born. All other human beings were born, including the human king of Tyre.
The shephard of Hermes talks about the univers i.e. the created order of God in Israel. That's it..i.e. the Law.
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You have already been shown from Revelation 12 that Satan is a real being, and that he is an angel.
Nope. You have been shown...through a careful exegeisis...you have supplied nothing but your word.
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Biblically prove that all angels were created. Sure.
Ps 148:2 Praise Him, all His angels; praise Him, all His hosts! 3 Praise Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all stars of light! 4 Praise Him, highest heavens, and the waters that are above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, for He commanded and they were created.
Hosts....hmmm...tsaba' is used to reference people. Most often armies....real people.
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On the ark of the Covenant two cherubim hovered above the mercy seat facing each other. This was a representation of the reality in heaven of the cherubim guarding the throne of God. As Ezekiel 28:14 states of Satan before his rebellion, ''You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God.
My goodness...you really read with wooden interpretation. Until you familiarize yourself with the culture in which Israel lived from 2000 BC till 70 AD, you will never get it Mike.
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1 Tim 5:21. 'I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ and of of His chosen angels...
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People - messegers - angels.
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Don't avoid the question I asked you by trying to make an issue out of my use of the word 'elect' angels. Do you believe in angels at all?
Sure, but most often if not always in the scriptures it has nothing to do with angelic beings, but rather people, messengers of the faith/law.
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No Sciotamicks. Jesus Christ is not Michael the archangel.
I have already aestablished this. Your word over the Bible does not constitue a rebuttal...sorry.
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When He came into the world as a man, He became the unique Person of the Universe. Fully God and fully man. He was never a created angel.
This I agree with, however, it never says Michael was created.
You infer this without any support. This is called eisegesis.
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As for heaven, the Bible speaks of three heavens.
1] The first heaven is the atmosphere. 1 Kings 14:11.
2] The second heaven is the stellar universe. Deuteronomy 4:19.
3]The third heaven is the throne room of God. 2 Cor 12:2-4; Eph 4:10.
Rev 21 says the throne of God is in the New Jerusalem, where in God dwells with men, on earth, since the NJ descended to earth. Refuted.
Thanks for your time, but I am done with you Mike. Your inability to discern the language, prose, text, syntax, and hermeneutics is obvious. The docrtines of man have poisoned you. Sola Scriptura brother. That is the "holy scriptures" Paul spoke of...not the Constantinian Canon.
Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures
Educate yourself. Preterism preserves the holy scriptrues.
Your doctrines, make Him a liar.
Soon at hand...not 2000 years later. I am done with you.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 07-13-2011 at 09:20 AM..
Mike’s eagerness to show that Rev. 12:7-9 refers to rebellious ‘angels’ and apologizing for a literal ‘satan’ overlooks the context of the passage. There’s also was a woman in heaven, in the agony of childbirth and resting here feet on the moon being faced by a seven headed dragon (Rev. 12:4).
I wonder if Mike takes the literalistic approach to this verse as well.
Mike’s eagerness to show that Rev. 12:7-9 refers to rebellious ‘angels’ and apologizing for a literal ‘satan’ overlooks the context of the passage. There’s also was a woman in heaven, in the agony of childbirth and resting here feet on the moon being faced by a seven headed dragon (Rev. 12:4).
I wonder if Mike takes the literalistic approach to this verse as well.
You are correct. The context is completely symbolic of the Apostate Jewish theocracy going after the apostles and disciples under Christ. That's it. Good work KIA.
For my people [is] foolish, they have not known me; they [are] sottish children, and they have none understanding: they [are] wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.
Context is Israel.
Sure it does, if you read it in a wooden fashion. I will point you to:
You miss very importnant phrases and words that were common in the ancient world...for example...beast, birds, creepies, etc were commonly used in the ancient world to denote other people outside of the tribe...but then again...why would you care, you have an agenda, and you don't want your little bubble to be burst up....next...Cain's wife, and the fear of Cain from other people after his expulsion from his family....after Seth, Adam had other sons and daughters, not before Seth, Cain was expelled before Seth...but then again, you never knew this because you never bothered bursting that little bubble you have created for yourself.
Wooden and literal interpretations.....
You are wrong. On the government of Christ's shoulder there is no end...read that...no end...that is the church of Christianity has no end...to establish His reign that is reigning over what?...his church for ever. You have NO Biblical proof other wise.
Let me help you....And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
There is no "during the tribulation" in the text....let me help you again Mike:
See there...no tribulation again...stop putting your own words into the text. Guilty man as charged.
Wrong again:
ἁρπαγησόμεθα - shall be caught up - First Person Future Passive Indicative Plural
Paul writes that we will be ἁρπαγησόμεθαin the clouds in 1 Thessalonians 4.17. I believe he is applying imagery from Daniel 7.13-15 to indicate Christ is the returning son of man figure.
N.T. Wright sees three images behind Paul’s words:
(1) Moses coming down from Sinai where we have a trumpet and a loud voice.
(2) “Daniel 7, in which the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds to sit with God in glory.”
(3) When emperors visit colonies within the empire and “the citizens of the country would go to meet him at some distance from the city” in order to welcome him as ruler.
N.T. Wright, Surprised by Hope, 132.
We have two intertextual echoes and one historical antecedent that give context to 1 Thess. 4.17. So our being “caught up” to meet Christ has more to do with Dan. 7 imagery of the saints victoriously joining Christ in his descent upon evil as well as the Parousia concept in the ancient world of the people of a colony welcoming their ruling emperor.
In the ancient world, it was common to see "caught up" language is common in Greco-Roman epitaphs from burial memorials, saying something along the lines of "caught up in death." Among the pagans, there was virtually no belief of life after death. In fact, among the Roman upper classes, this belief in resurrection put Christianity in the realm of fantasy; perhaps, this is why Festus declared: "Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad." Acts 26:24
William Barclay (The Letters to the Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians,p. 203) quotes ancient philosophers in the subject of dying: "Aeschylus wrote, ‘Once a man dies there is no resurrection.' Theocritus wrote, ‘There is hope for those who are alive, but those who have died are without hope.' Catullus wrote, ‘When once our brief light sets, there is one perpetual night through which we must sleep.' On their tombstones grim epitaphs were carved. ‘I was not; I became; I am not; I care not.' One of the most pathetic papyrus letters that has come down to us is a letter of sympathy which runs like this. ‘Irene to Taonnophris and Philo, good comfort. I was as sorry and wept over the departed one as I wept for Didymas. And all things whatsoever were fitting, I did, and all mine, Epaphroditus and Thermouthion and Philion and Appollonius and Plantas. But nevertheless against such things one can do nothing. Therefore comfort ye one another.'" cf. Col. 2:8
Paul's use is to say they are "caught up" to the highest form of life, instead of death, contrasting it with what would have been known as a common euphemism for dying. So it would seem that Paul's message is not really referring to any intricate details of the catching-up, but rather contrasting the supposed finality of the catching-up of death with the hope those who are alive have of being caught up into eternal life with the Lord. By the use of "we," Paul wasn't necessarily stating that he would be caught up in the rapture. In Phil. 3:10-11, Paul desired to "attain to the resurrection from the dead." Later in this epistle, Paul wrote, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him" (1 Thess 5:10). When writing, Paul uses "we" to identify with all Christians at the time and preceding that, and quite possibly, confirming such an experience for those to follow 1 Cor 15:55,57
The issue of preceding "those who are asleep" was obviously of great concern to the Thessalonians. They may have thought...."Would those Christians who preceded us in death truly be "left behind?" Paul wrote definitively that the dead in Christ will rise first . John 5:28-29
This makes much more sense, since the surrounding context of the passage seems to be Paul addressing a concern the Thessalonians had regarding what happened to those who died before Christ's return. Apparently, they were afraid those who had died were dead forever, with no resurrection. Paul's intent is not to set a pre or post-trib or whatever trib doctrine, but to comfort the Thessalonians and to teach them of the certainty of final resurrection for those who have died as believers. To try and set a timeline, or even a relative timeline, is warranted by the passage. Though if anything, I think it's clear that if the passage sets a relative timeline, it says that the coming of Christ, the resurrection, and the "catching-up" all happen in very close temporal proximity to Paul's letter and said "end" of 1 Cor 15:24. As Preterists, this is around the year 70 AD. Let's read the passage again:
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16-17)
This is often cited as proof text for a millenialist rapture, however Paul was not speaking of a literal event where all true believers will be caught up physio-spiritually to meet Jesus in the air. Paul was definitively referencing the political and military custom where citizens would leave the security of their walled city to "Go out and meet" visiting generals, kings and dignitaries. They would do so unarmed as a gesture of subservience and then escort the dignitary into the city as an honored guest.
Paul's statement lines up perfectly with Revelation.
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2
In the NT it is clear that Christ will come once and then those who wait for Him will escort him back to earth as a honored guest, transforming the church into the heavenly Jerusalem. Rapture theology is also based on the several passages where Christ speaks of one being taken and another being left behind.
I tell you, on that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken, the other left. And there will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left. Luke 17:34-25
Rapture theologists use this passage outside of it's context. These lines are part of a larger discourse about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. Besides, Jesus prefaces his statement about being taken and being left behind several verses earlier by saying...
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man; they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up to the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Similarly, as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; on the day when Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. So it will be on the day the Son of Man is revealed.Luke 17:26-30
We see the same imagery as shown thus far which Paul is leaning on in Phil 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly bwait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
Don’t misread the statement that our citizenship is “in heaven”. That doesn’t mean we must “go” there to get it. It is obvious that even in this passage, like the others we have mentioned, resurrection is the focus and if resurrection is the focus then we do not regain our bodies to “go”...but is focused on reality and spirit-life in the physical world.
Several key passages are now to be analyzed in lieu of our focal point.
Describing the vast majority who "heareth the Word of the Kingdom, and understandeth it not" (Matt 13:19), Satan "catcheth away [Greek, harpazo] that which was sown in his heart" (Matthew 13:19). The events surrounding the Rapture are by stealth to the ungodly, i.e., the "Day of the LORD so cometh as a thief in the night" (1Thess 5:2), but not to the Godly. "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" 1 Thess 5:4.
"Harpazo" is used to describe the great multitudes of people who were ready to "come and take Him [Jesus] by force [harpazo], to make Him a king" (John 6:15). Though they had the base design of wanting to force Jesus to be their benefactor for selfish reasons, it does remind us that the LORD will take His own by force for His own pleasure. "Thou art worthy, O LORD, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created" (Revelation 4:11). It is the pleasure of our King to rapture His people, that "where [King Jesus is], there ye may be also" John 14:3.
The Good Shepherd teaches us that He cares for us as His sheep. "I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Compare the LORD Jesus Christ as the Good Shepherd as opposed to a "hireling" (John 10:12). "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth [Greek, harpazo] them, and scattereth the sheep" (John 10:12). Again, Satan will catch those who "received not the love of the Truth" (2 Thess 2:10), and these will "be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" 2 Thess 2:12.
Continuing with His analogy of Shepherd and sheep, Jesus assures us that no one is capable of seizing us by force out of His hand. "28 And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck [Greek, harpazo] them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck [Greek, harpazo] them out of My Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). In this instance, it is with great relief that we are not snatched away-- by Satan. "The Name of the LORD is a Strong Tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe" Proverbs 18:10.
Now let's read very carefully here about Phillip:
Philip the Evangelist was directed by the angel of the LORD to go to Gaza. He met an Ethiopian, who was a chief officer of Queen Candace, reading Isaiah 53.
"6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth" (Isaiah 53:6-7).
Expounding these Scriptures concerning Jesus the Messiah, the Ethiopian eunuch believed, and was baptized. "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the LORD caught away [Greek, harpazo] Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing" (Acts 8:39). In this instance, Philip was caught away to other earthly employments. About twenty years later, the Apostle Paul stayed over at Philip's house in Caesarea (Acts 21:8). But, to be caught away by the LORD means to be repositioned for a higher service.
So then, what do we do with the part in 1 Thess. 4.17 where we are “caught up”. Where do we take it, apart from it's linguistic, cultural, and/or historical context? It almost seems like resurrection could be so we “go to heaven” where Christ has been. I think this misses Paul’s point and it ignores the Johannine and Lukan contributions to our eschatology that we have noted above.
ἅμα. Does this (A) emphasize the σὺν: ‘together with’ (NIV), or (B) emphasize the unity of the περιλειπόμενοι, or (C) state the unity of all the living Christians since that specific event?
shall be caught up (Harpazo) aΊrpa/zw har-pad'-zo
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away
in the clouds (Nephele) nefeΡlh nef-el'-ay
a cloud
used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness
Cloud in this verse is different from "cloud" as we know it. It is meant to represent the Spirit of God as shown above. This is found in Exodus, when a pillar cloud lead the israelites into the wilderness. This was not a "normal" cloud, but the Spirit of God.
to (Eis) meet (Apantesis) a)pa/nthsiv ap-an'-tay-sis the Lord (Kurios) ku/riov koo'-ree-os in (Eis) the air (Aer) aΉh/r ah-ayr'
the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air
As seen here, the "air" means the "air" right above the surface of the earth or denser air, such as above mountain terrain. This matches up with scripture in the Old Testament, that this air, in the clouds, resides in a realm although yet physical in appearance, is none other than the spiritual realm in which God abides. Riding swiftly on the clouds of Heaven....God's spirit sky..
In conclusion, it is hard to interpret this as a voluntary action of the caught up saints, dead or alive. Paul is clear that external force (God) makes it, it is not voluntary decision. The language Paul used was common usage for the ancients when applying a higher spiritual existence that does not necessarily denotes incorporeal living solely, but rather an existence that was shown through various works and historical elements that were concerned with higher, divine service, whether it be in this world, another, or both incorporated together, as such is current with any Christian and their life. Paul exemplifies the act of the chastised bride 2 Cor 11:2…leaving the city walls…prepared for the husband Christ, catching up His bride in consummation. The Parousia (Presence or indwelling of Christ), Marriage, Harpazo, etc…are all part of one grand scheme and panoramic event…the end of the Old Covenant in its entirety….the city walls of the temple fell, and the saints and Christ indwell cohesively in the physical, natural and spiritual dimensions that we call reality…Heaven on Earth….as it is on Earth, it is in Heaven…complete union like "Christ's" resurrected, ascended, and returning/ed body…as the two were indeed compatible…which is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus comes, Christians meet him in the "spirit sky/air" and thus begins the judgements, the wedding feast begins….the marriage, the honeymoon, and for those "who were alive and remain," all the life's toil of endurance, overcoming of "temptations" to sin, throughout the ages to come, unto a world without end, where in the earth abodes forever....are conquered in Christ.
The saints of the first century and those that slept, were indeed caught up, in eternal life and service, and those who eagerly awaited Him, were positioned here on earth into priestly service, for the Lord God, Jesus Christ, seized, from the possibility of the sting of death.
The mystery has NOTHING to do with the church as a dispensation. The mystery has everything to do with the grafting in of Gentiles as part of the body of Christ, WITH ISRAEL'S Remnant 12 tribes. Peter went to Judah and preached, Paul went to the empire to bring back the diaspora, fulfilling the OT promise to Israel as a whole and thus complimenting Isa 42:6 as a reality. Fulness of the Gentiles is simply, those Israelites representing the Nations. Read:
In Romans Paul was definitely addressing the Israelites ONLY. But remember how he said in chapter nine that not all Israel was of Israel? That is, not all national Israelites are of the true Israel. So we can at least clear it up that only the elect national Israelites would be saved. Paul said "Even so at this present time." I.e. at the time Paul was writing there was a remnant of the national Israelites who had not yet believed in Christ, thus they were still enemies of those Israelites who had been converted. That is why Paul identified himself prior to his conversion:
Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Acts 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But because he was one of the elect national Israelites, God converted him. And so Romans 11:
Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. {5} Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
The last of the national Israelites who were elect had not yet come to faith in Christ, but that remnant would come before He would destroy Jerusalem.
Romans 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. {12} Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
They were enemies of converted Jews and Gentiles, and they were elect and national Israelites. But they had not yet been converted. But the promise was sure.
Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Even Paul recognized that some of them would be saved. Not all the national Israelites would be saved. Just the elect:
Romans 11:6-9 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. {7} What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded {8} (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. {9} And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
So we have Paul contrasting the elect unbelieving national Israelites versus the non-elect national Israelites. Therefore, here Paul is referring to the elect, yet unbelieving national Israelites:
Romans 11:25-26 So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. {26} And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob."
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Paul says:
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. "As touching the election...(i.e. the yet unconverted elect national Israelites)..." That is the same group as Paul mentioned earlier:
Romans 11:5-7 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. {6} And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. {7} What then?Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
There were the national Israelites who were not elect, and there were the national Israelites who were elect. Only those would be saved, and they are part of the true Israel of God. Paul saw a definite future for the remnant of national Israel who had not yet been converted but who were elect. And they were finally converted before God destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70.
So then, they were enemies while yet in an unconverted state, nevertheless they were elect and would be saved. They were the "all Israel" of which Paul spoke. They were the remnant, the elect, the beloved for the fathers' sakes. The mystery i.e. Rev 10:7
And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not....But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Dealt with the marriage:
Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.
Remember the trumpet:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The mystery is the inclusion of Gentiles into ALL ISRAEL:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Remember earlier I said People were noted as Animal Motifs:
Here the mystery in the OT is explained to the prophets:
Speaking of Israel as a whole...both houses Israel and Judah representing the north and southern kingdoms:
Hos 2 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Next we see after God has united them both:
And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
Turning to Ezekiel 37:
Valley of the dry bones...Israel is about to come alive and be joined as one stick from both houses uniting:
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
Context is Ephraim and Judah both representing the southern and northern kingdom:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
No end Mike...no end.
So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Other peoples.....believing on the lord...here is more:
And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood
Animals eating Christ's blood? Nope....this is Getiles offering up their allegiance to Christ...but you never knew that did you? Because you don't venture out of your doctrinal bubble that keeps you warm and full of milk...eat some meat for once MIKE!
There is more:
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
CF Matt 5:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Christ fulfilled everything Mike. The Law is now observed in our worship of Him.
Let's keep going in Eze 39:
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Compare Joel 2:
And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Now compare Acts 2:
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
Fulfilled in Pentacost.
Read again the mystery in Eze 39:
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Follow closely in Gen 48:
And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Then move to Romans 11:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (Nations - Ethnos) be come in.
No exegsis here. Hogwash. So was the remainder of some of your thoughts that have zero support, in which YOU HAVE NOT offered.
The shephard of Hermes talks about the univers i.e. the created order of God in Israel. That's it..i.e. the Law.
Nope. You have been shown...through a careful exegeisis...you have supplied nothing but your word.
Hosts....hmmm...tsaba' is used to reference people. Most often armies....real people.
My goodness...you really read with wooden interpretation. Until you familiarize yourself with the culture in which Israel lived from 2000 BC till 70 AD, you will never get it Mike.
People - messegers - angels.
Sure, but most often if not always in the scriptures it has nothing to do with angelic beings, but rather people, messengers of the faith/law.
I have already aestablished this. Your word over the Bible does not constitue a rebuttal...sorry.
This I agree with, however, it never says Michael was created.
You infer this without any support. This is called eisegesis.
Rev 21 says the throne of God is in the New Jerusalem, where in God dwells with men, on earth, since the NJ descended to earth. Refuted.
Thanks for your time, but I am done with you Mike. Your inability to discern the language, prose, text, syntax, and hermeneutics is obvious. The docrtines of man have poisoned you. Sola Scriptura brother. That is the "holy scriptures" Paul spoke of...not the Constantinian Canon.
Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures
Educate yourself. Preterism preserves the holy scriptrues.
Your doctrines, make Him a liar.
Soon at hand...not 2000 years later. I am done with you.
We do not agree on many issues involving your interpretations . . . but your hermeneutic scholarship is impressive, sciota. Do not be too discouraged . . . it can be impossible to penetrate dogmatic beliefs.
For my people [is] foolish, they have not known me; they [are] sottish children, and they have none understanding: they [are] wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.
Context is Israel.
No Sciotamicks. We are talking about Gen 1 and original creation. It has nothing to do with Israel.
Quote:
Sure it does, if you read it in a wooden fashion. I will point you to:
You miss very importnant phrases and words that were common in the ancient world...for example...beast, birds, creepies, etc were commonly used in the ancient world to denote other people outside of the tribe...but then again...why would you care, you have an agenda, and you don't want your little bubble to be burst up....next...Cain's wife, and the fear of Cain from other people after his expulsion from his family....after Seth, Adam had other sons and daughters, not before Seth, Cain was expelled before Seth...but then again, you never knew this because you never bothered bursting that little bubble you have created for yourself.
Wooden and literal interpretations.....
My only 'agenda' is to present the truth and to expose false teaching. Why do you resort to accusations?
Adam was the first man and therefore the federal head of the human race. That is why his original sin is imputed to each person who is born, with the exception of Jesus Christ because of the virgin birth.
In Lukes Geneology of Jesus, the Geneology goes all the way back to Adam.
Quote:
You are wrong. On the government of Christ's shoulder there is no end...read that...no end...that is the church of Christianity has no end...to establish His reign that is reigning over what?...his church for ever. You have NO Biblical proof other wise.
You are confusing the church with the Dispensation of the church. The church is the bride of Christ and of course is forever. But the dispensation of the church ends with the rapture of the church.
As for Christs reign, I already told you that it is eternal. That means that there is no end to it.
His reign over what you ask? First, I will mention that those members of the church who overcome and advance to spiritual maturity will reign with Christ (Rev 2:26; Rev 3:21).
Now, concerning Isaiah 9:7 'There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.'
The context is of Christ's rule over Israel (Micah 5:2) and the world (Zech 14:9).
Quote:
Let me help you....And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
There is no "during the tribulation" in the text....let me help you again Mike:
See there...no tribulation again...stop putting your own words into the text. Guilty man as charged.
There is no need for posturing Sciotamicks. Whether you understand it or not, it is I who am attempting to help you understand.
The bulk of the book of Revelation concerns the tribulation. Rev 14:6 speaks of angelic witness of the gospel during the tribulation.
Quote:
Wrong again:
ἁρπαγησόμεθα - shall be caught up - First Person Future Passive Indicative Plural
Paul writes that we will be ἁρπαγησόμεθαin the clouds in 1 Thessalonians 4.17. I believe he is applying imagery from Daniel 7.13-15 to indicate Christ is the returning son of man figure.
N.T. Wright sees three images behind Paul’s words:
(1) Moses coming down from Sinai where we have a trumpet and a loud voice.
(2) “Daniel 7, in which the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds to sit with God in glory.”
(3) When emperors visit colonies within the empire and “the citizens of the country would go to meet him at some distance from the city” in order to welcome him as ruler.
N.T. Wright, Surprised by Hope, 132.
We have two intertextual echoes and one historical antecedent that give context to 1 Thess. 4.17. So our being “caught up” to meet Christ has more to do with Dan. 7 imagery of the saints victoriously joining Christ in his descent upon evil as well as the Parousia concept in the ancient world of the people of a colony welcoming their ruling emperor.
In the ancient world, it was common to see "caught up" language is common in Greco-Roman epitaphs from burial memorials, saying something along the lines of "caught up in death." Among the pagans, there was virtually no belief of life after death. In fact, among the Roman upper classes, this belief in resurrection put Christianity in the realm of fantasy; perhaps, this is why Festus declared: "Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad." Acts 26:24
William Barclay (The Letters to the Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians,p. 203) quotes ancient philosophers in the subject of dying: "Aeschylus wrote, ‘Once a man dies there is no resurrection.' Theocritus wrote, ‘There is hope for those who are alive, but those who have died are without hope.' Catullus wrote, ‘When once our brief light sets, there is one perpetual night through which we must sleep.' On their tombstones grim epitaphs were carved. ‘I was not; I became; I am not; I care not.' One of the most pathetic papyrus letters that has come down to us is a letter of sympathy which runs like this. ‘Irene to Taonnophris and Philo, good comfort. I was as sorry and wept over the departed one as I wept for Didymas. And all things whatsoever were fitting, I did, and all mine, Epaphroditus and Thermouthion and Philion and Appollonius and Plantas. But nevertheless against such things one can do nothing. Therefore comfort ye one another.'" cf. Col. 2:8
Paul's use is to say they are "caught up" to the highest form of life, instead of death, contrasting it with what would have been known as a common euphemism for dying. So it would seem that Paul's message is not really referring to any intricate details of the catching-up, but rather contrasting the supposed finality of the catching-up of death with the hope those who are alive have of being caught up into eternal life with the Lord. By the use of "we," Paul wasn't necessarily stating that he would be caught up in the rapture. In Phil. 3:10-11, Paul desired to "attain to the resurrection from the dead." Later in this epistle, Paul wrote, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him" (1 Thess 5:10). When writing, Paul uses "we" to identify with all Christians at the time and preceding that, and quite possibly, confirming such an experience for those to follow 1 Cor 15:55,57
The issue of preceding "those who are asleep" was obviously of great concern to the Thessalonians. They may have thought...."Would those Christians who preceded us in death truly be "left behind?" Paul wrote definitively that the dead in Christ will rise first . John 5:28-29
This makes much more sense, since the surrounding context of the passage seems to be Paul addressing a concern the Thessalonians had regarding what happened to those who died before Christ's return. Apparently, they were afraid those who had died were dead forever, with no resurrection. Paul's intent is not to set a pre or post-trib or whatever trib doctrine, but to comfort the Thessalonians and to teach them of the certainty of final resurrection for those who have died as believers. To try and set a timeline, or even a relative timeline, is warranted by the passage. Though if anything, I think it's clear that if the passage sets a relative timeline, it says that the coming of Christ, the resurrection, and the "catching-up" all happen in very close temporal proximity to Paul's letter and said "end" of 1 Cor 15:24. As Preterists, this is around the year 70 AD. Let's read the passage again:
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16-17)
This is often cited as proof text for a millenialist rapture, however Paul was not speaking of a literal event where all true believers will be caught up physio-spiritually to meet Jesus in the air. Paul was definitively referencing the political and military custom where citizens would leave the security of their walled city to "Go out and meet" visiting generals, kings and dignitaries. They would do so unarmed as a gesture of subservience and then escort the dignitary into the city as an honored guest.
Paul's statement lines up perfectly with Revelation.
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2
No Sciotamicks. Paul was speaking of a literal rapture. When Christ returns, He returns with the entire church which had previously been taken up to heaven prior to the beginning of the tribulation. Rev 19:7-8 shows the church, the entire church - the bride of Christ in heaven after already having undergone the Judgment seat of Christ.
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In the NT it is clear that Christ will come once and then those who wait for Him will escort him back to earth as a honored guest, transforming the church into the heavenly Jerusalem. Rapture theology is also based on the several passages where Christ speaks of one being taken and another being left behind.
A guest??? When Christ returns, it will NOT be as an honored guest. When Christ returns, it will be as King of kings, and Lord of Lords. He comes back as the Lion of Judah who will crush those who oppose Him. And He comes back WITH the church -- His bride. Nor will He be escorted. He will be followed by the armies of heaven (Rev 19:14). He will take possession of the earth and take His place as the rightful ruler.
And as a full preterist, how is it that you reconcile your belief that all prophecy has been fulfilled with the fact that the prophecy of the Lord's return has not yet happened, but is still future???
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I tell you, on that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken, the other left. And there will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left. Luke 17:34-25
Rapture theologists use this passage outside of it's context. These lines are part of a larger discourse about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. Besides, Jesus prefaces his statement about being taken and being left behind several verses earlier by saying...
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man; they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up to the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Similarly, as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; on the day when Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained from the sky to destroy them all. So it will be on the day the Son of Man is revealed.Luke 17:26-30
Sciotamicks, Luke 17:34-35 is not about anything that happened in 70 A.D, and it is not about the rapture of the church either. Luke 17:34-35 refers to the baptism of fire in which, when Christ returns, the ones being taken away are taken in judgment. They are cast into the eternal fire as mentioned in Matthew 25:41. This was prophesied by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:12 ''And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.'' The ones who are left will enter into the kingdom.
We see the same imagery as shown thus far which Paul is leaning on in Phil 3:20-21
Now, Matthew 24:2 and Luke 21:20 do refer to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.
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For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly bwait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
Don’t misread the statement that our citizenship is “in heaven”. That doesn’t mean we must “go” there to get it. It is obvious that even in this passage, like the others we have mentioned, resurrection is the focus and if resurrection is the focus then we do not regain our bodies to “go”...but is focused on reality and spirit-life in the physical world.
Believers go immediately to heaven when they die. At the rapture of the Church, they will return with Christ to the clouds where they will receive their resurrection bodies. Believers who are still alive on the earth at that time will be caught up and their mortal bodies will be transformed into bodies of immortality (1 Thess 4:13-17).
Yes, the believers citizenship in heaven belongs to him now.
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Several key passages are now to be analyzed in lieu of our focal point.
Describing the vast majority who "heareth the Word of the Kingdom, and understandeth it not" (Matt 13:19), Satan "catcheth away [Greek, harpazo] that which was sown in his heart" (Matthew 13:19). The events surrounding the Rapture are by stealth to the ungodly, i.e., the "Day of the LORD so cometh as a thief in the night" (1Thess 5:2), but not to the Godly. "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" 1 Thess 5:4.
"Harpazo" is used to describe the great multitudes of people who were ready to "come and take Him [Jesus] by force [harpazo], to make Him a king" (John 6:15). Though they had the base design of wanting to force Jesus to be their benefactor for selfish reasons, it does remind us that the LORD will take His own by force for His own pleasure. "Thou art worthy, O LORD, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created" (Revelation 4:11). It is the pleasure of our King to rapture His people, that "where [King Jesus is], there ye may be also" John 14:3.
The Good Shepherd teaches us that He cares for us as His sheep. "I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Compare the LORD Jesus Christ as the Good Shepherd as opposed to a "hireling" (John 10:12). "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth [Greek, harpazo] them, and scattereth the sheep" (John 10:12). Again, Satan will catch those who "received not the love of the Truth" (2 Thess 2:10), and these will "be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" 2 Thess 2:12.
Continuing with His analogy of Shepherd and sheep, Jesus assures us that no one is capable of seizing us by force out of His hand. "28 And I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck [Greek, harpazo] them out of My hand. 29 My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck [Greek, harpazo] them out of My Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). In this instance, it is with great relief that we are not snatched away-- by Satan. "The Name of the LORD is a Strong Tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe" Proverbs 18:10.
Now let's read very carefully here about Phillip:
Philip the Evangelist was directed by the angel of the LORD to go to Gaza. He met an Ethiopian, who was a chief officer of Queen Candace, reading Isaiah 53.
"6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth" (Isaiah 53:6-7).
Expounding these Scriptures concerning Jesus the Messiah, the Ethiopian eunuch believed, and was baptized. "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the LORD caught away [Greek, harpazo] Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing" (Acts 8:39). In this instance, Philip was caught away to other earthly employments. About twenty years later, the Apostle Paul stayed over at Philip's house in Caesarea (Acts 21:8). But, to be caught away by the LORD means to be repositioned for a higher service.
So then, what do we do with the part in 1 Thess. 4.17 where we are “caught up”. Where do we take it, apart from it's linguistic, cultural, and/or historical context? It almost seems like resurrection could be so we “go to heaven” where Christ has been. I think this misses Paul’s point and it ignores the Johannine and Lukan contributions to our eschatology that we have noted above.
ἅμα. Does this (A) emphasize the σὺν: ‘together with’ (NIV), or (B) emphasize the unity of the περιλειπόμενοι, or (C) state the unity of all the living Christians since that specific event?
shall be caught up (Harpazo) aΊrpa/zw har-pad'-zo
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away
in the clouds (Nephele) nefeΡlh nef-el'-ay
a cloud
used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness
Cloud in this verse is different from "cloud" as we know it. It is meant to represent the Spirit of God as shown above. This is found in Exodus, when a pillar cloud lead the israelites into the wilderness. This was not a "normal" cloud, but the Spirit of God.
to (Eis) meet (Apantesis) a)pa/nthsiv ap-an'-tay-sis the Lord (Kurios) ku/riov koo'-ree-os in (Eis) the air (Aer) aΉh/r ah-ayr'
the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air
As seen here, the "air" means the "air" right above the surface of the earth or denser air, such as above mountain terrain. This matches up with scripture in the Old Testament, that this air, in the clouds, resides in a realm although yet physical in appearance, is none other than the spiritual realm in which God abides. Riding swiftly on the clouds of Heaven....God's spirit sky..
In conclusion, it is hard to interpret this as a voluntary action of the caught up saints, dead or alive. Paul is clear that external force (God) makes it, it is not voluntary decision. The language Paul used was common usage for the ancients when applying a higher spiritual existence that does not necessarily denotes incorporeal living solely, but rather an existence that was shown through various works and historical elements that were concerned with higher, divine service, whether it be in this world, another, or both incorporated together, as such is current with any Christian and their life. Paul exemplifies the act of the chastised bride 2 Cor 11:2…leaving the city walls…prepared for the husband Christ, catching up His bride in consummation. The Parousia (Presence or indwelling of Christ), Marriage, Harpazo, etc…are all part of one grand scheme and panoramic event…the end of the Old Covenant in its entirety….the city walls of the temple fell, and the saints and Christ indwell cohesively in the physical, natural and spiritual dimensions that we call reality…Heaven on Earth….as it is on Earth, it is in Heaven…complete union like "Christ's" resurrected, ascended, and returning/ed body…as the two were indeed compatible…which is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus comes, Christians meet him in the "spirit sky/air" and thus begins the judgements, the wedding feast begins….the marriage, the honeymoon, and for those "who were alive and remain," all the life's toil of endurance, overcoming of "temptations" to sin, throughout the ages to come, unto a world without end, where in the earth abodes forever....are conquered in Christ.
The saints of the first century and those that slept, were indeed caught up, in eternal life and service, and those who eagerly awaited Him, were positioned here on earth into priestly service, for the Lord God, Jesus Christ, seized, from the possibility of the sting of death.
As has already been shown, the rapture of the church is an actual event which terminates the dispensation of the church, at which time the church is taken up into heaven where it undergoes the judgment seat of Christ. In the rapture of the church, the bridegroom (Jesus Christ) comes to claim His bride (the church). The announcement of the wedding supper is made in Rev 19:9 The wedding supper apparently will take place back on earth when the church returns with Christ at the end of the tribulation.
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The mystery has NOTHING to do with the church as a dispensation. The mystery has everything to do with the grafting in of Gentiles as part of the body of Christ, WITH ISRAEL'S Remnant 12 tribes. Peter went to Judah and preached, Paul went to the empire to bring back the diaspora, fulfilling the OT promise to Israel as a whole and thus complimenting Isa 42:6 as a reality. Fulness of the Gentiles is simply, those Israelites representing the Nations. Read:
In Romans Paul was definitely addressing the Israelites ONLY. But remember how he said in chapter nine that not all Israel was of Israel? That is, not all national Israelites are of the true Israel. So we can at least clear it up that only the elect national Israelites would be saved. Paul said "Even so at this present time." I.e. at the time Paul was writing there was a remnant of the national Israelites who had not yet believed in Christ, thus they were still enemies of those Israelites who had been converted. That is why Paul identified himself prior to his conversion:
Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Acts 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But because he was one of the elect national Israelites, God converted him. And so Romans 11:
Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. {5} Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
The last of the national Israelites who were elect had not yet come to faith in Christ, but that remnant would come before He would destroy Jerusalem.
Romans 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. {12} Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
They were enemies of converted Jews and Gentiles, and they were elect and national Israelites. But they had not yet been converted. But the promise was sure.
Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Even Paul recognized that some of them would be saved. Not all the national Israelites would be saved. Just the elect:
Romans 11:6-9 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. {7} What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded {8} (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. {9} And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
So we have Paul contrasting the elect unbelieving national Israelites versus the non-elect national Israelites. Therefore, here Paul is referring to the elect, yet unbelieving national Israelites:
Romans 11:25-26 So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. {26} And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob."
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Paul says:
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. "As touching the election...(i.e. the yet unconverted elect national Israelites)..." That is the same group as Paul mentioned earlier:
Romans 11:5-7 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. {6} And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. {7} What then?Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
There were the national Israelites who were not elect, and there were the national Israelites who were elect. Only those would be saved, and they are part of the true Israel of God. Paul saw a definite future for the remnant of national Israel who had not yet been converted but who were elect. And they were finally converted before God destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70.
So then, they were enemies while yet in an unconverted state, nevertheless they were elect and would be saved. They were the "all Israel" of which Paul spoke. They were the remnant, the elect, the beloved for the fathers' sakes. The mystery i.e. Rev 10:7
And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not....But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Dealt with the marriage:
Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.
Remember the trumpet:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The mystery is the inclusion of Gentiles into ALL ISRAEL:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Remember earlier I said People were noted as Animal Motifs:
Here the mystery in the OT is explained to the prophets:
Speaking of Israel as a whole...both houses Israel and Judah representing the north and southern kingdoms:
Hos 2 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Next we see after God has united them both:
And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
Turning to Ezekiel 37:
Valley of the dry bones...Israel is about to come alive and be joined as one stick from both houses uniting:
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
Context is Ephraim and Judah both representing the southern and northern kingdom:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
No end Mike...no end.
So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Other peoples.....believing on the lord...here is more:
And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood
Animals eating Christ's blood? Nope....this is Getiles offering up their allegiance to Christ...but you never knew that did you? Because you don't venture out of your doctrinal bubble that keeps you warm and full of milk...eat some meat for once MIKE!
There is more:
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
CF Matt 5:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Christ fulfilled everything Mike. The Law is now observed in our worship of Him.
Let's keep going in Eze 39:
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Compare Joel 2:
And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Now compare Acts 2:
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
Fulfilled in Pentacost.
Read again the mystery in Eze 39:
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Follow closely in Gen 48:
And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Then move to Romans 11:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (Nations - Ethnos) be come in.
The church did not exist prior to the day of Pentecost which began the dispensation of the church. At and since that time, both Jews who believe in Christ and Gentiles who believe in Christ become part of one body called the church. The church is a new spiritual species. It is not Israel, and it is not Gentile. It is 'CHURCH', where both Jew and Gentile are one body distinct from either Israel or Gentiles. Physically of course, a Jew remains a Jew and a Gentle remains a Gentile. But spiritually, they become 'Church' for which God has a different program than He does for Israel and the Gentiles.
2 Cor 5:17 'Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
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No exegsis here. Hogwash. So was the remainder of some of your thoughts that have zero support, in which YOU HAVE NOT offered.
Once again you resort to making proclamations of no exegesis and not having any Biblical support. As I have already said, ''No, they do NOT happen at the same time. The resurrection of the dead occurs in stages. The rapture of the church ends the church-age. Then the seven year tribulation begins shortly afterwards. Then Christ returns at the end of the tribulation and the church returns with Christ. Also at this time, the tribulational martyrs and Old Testament saints will be resurrected. The Millennial Kingdom commences at this time and at the end of the Millennium the resurrection of all unbelievers and the great white throne judgment takes place.''
You can see in Revelation 20:4-5 a distinction between the resurrection of the tribulational saints and the resurrection of the rest of the dead (a reference to the resurrection of unbelievers) a thousand years later. The coming of Christ mentioned in Rev 19 is separated from the great white throne judgment by those same thousand years. This is all clearly shown in Revelation.
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The shephard of Hermes talks about the univers i.e. the created order of God in Israel. That's it..i.e. the Law.
The Shepherd of Hermas, which by the way is not Canonical (not that you said it was), states twice that the Universe was created out of nothing.
Here is one of the passages.
Mandate 1
1[26]:1 "First of all, believe that God is One, even He who created all things and set them in order, and brought all things from non-existence into being, Who comprehendeth all things, being alone incomprehensible. The Shepherd of Hermas (Lightfoot translation)
This is not a reference to Israel or the Law.
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Nope. You have been shown...through a careful exegeisis...you have supplied nothing but your word.
No Sciotamicks. I have supplied Rev 12 which shows Satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven by Michael and his angels. You can't even come up with a good argument. You are simply making empty statements of protest.
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Hosts....hmmm...tsaba' is used to reference people. Most often armies....real people.
No Sciotamicks. The Psalmist in Psalm 148 is calling upon all creation to praise the Lord. In verse 2, angels are being called on to praise God. It isn't until verse 11 that the kings of the earth and all peoples; Princes and all judges of the earth; and in verse 12, both young men and virgins; Old men and children, are called on to praise the Lord.
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My goodness...you really read with wooden interpretation. Until you familiarize yourself with the culture in which Israel lived from 2000 BC till 70 AD, you will never get it Mike.
Do you not know what the Cherubim on the lid of ark of the covenant represented. As I have already said, and this can be researched, the two cherubim on the top of the ark of the covenant overlooked the mercy seat. This represented the very real scene in heaven where actual Cherubim overlook the throne of God.
I think that you are not interested, but here is a brief look at the Cherubim in the Bible.
Anyone interested can simply do a search on 'Did Satan guard the throne of God before he fell.'
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People - messegers - angels.
Sure, but most often if not always in the scriptures it has nothing to do with angelic beings, but rather people, messengers of the faith/law.
Yes the word translated as angel means messenger. It can indeed refer to people. It also refers to very real beings. Beings who in Job 38:7 were present at the creation of the earth.
You are willing to believe in the elect angels - the good angels, but you have chosen to no longer believe in the fallen angels of which Satan is the leader.
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I have already aestablished this. Your word over the Bible does not constitue a rebuttal...sorry.
No Sciotomicks. You have not established that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. That is a heresy.
The archangel Michael is described in Dan 10:13 as one of the chief princes who came to assist the angel (probably Gabriel) who was being delayed by a Satanic emissary to prevent Daniels prayer from being answered.
Jesus Christ is not 'one of the chief princes'. Jesus Christ is not, and never was, an archangel.
Jude 9 demonstates that Jesus Christ is not Michael the archangel. The Lord Jesus would not have to call on the name of anyone else in order to rebuke the devil because the Lord Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. However, Michael the Archangel said "the Lord rebuke you," thereby demonstrating that he is not the Lord.
Hebrews 1:13 says, 'But to which of the angels has He ever said, ''Sit at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet.'
Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father in the third heaven.
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This I agree with, however, it never says Michael was created.
You infer this without any support. This is called eisegesis.
Again you throw out the word eisegesis. You draw it like a gun. I have just shown you above that Michael the archangel is not Jesus Christ. Michael is a created being as are all the other angels. The erronious belief that Jesus Christ is the archangel Michael is held by groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists.
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Rev 21 says the throne of God is in the New Jerusalem, where in God dwells with men, on earth, since the NJ descended to earth. Refuted.
The New Jerusalem is not on earth at this time. It is in the third heaven.
Paul states the following in 2 Corinthians 12:2 'I know a man (speaking of himself) in Christ who fourteen years ago -- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows -- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3] And I know how such a man -- whether in the body or apart form the body I do not know, God knows -- 4] was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Paul states that he was caught up to the third heaven which he also calls Paradise.
Ephesians 4:10 states that Jesus ascended far above all the heavens.
Hebrews 4:14 says that Jesus passed through the heavens.
Hebrews 1:13 says that Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father. Jesus Christ at this time is not bodily on the earth. He is bodily in the third heaven.
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Thanks for your time, but I am done with you Mike. Your inability to discern the language, prose, text, syntax, and hermeneutics is obvious. The docrtines of man have poisoned you. Sola Scriptura brother. That is the "holy scriptures" Paul spoke of...not the Constantinian Canon.
Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures
Educate yourself. Preterism preserves the holy scriptrues.
Your doctrines, make Him a liar.
Soon at hand...not 2000 years later. I am done with you.
No Sciotamicks. Preterism distorts the Scriptures. It is a Satanic attack on the word of God. Just as those who adhere to the false teaching of Universalism think they are right and will not listen to anyone, so also it is with you and your belief in Preterism. You think you are right and cannot understand the extent of your error. And as with the Universalists, you will not listen to those who truly do know what they are talking about.
You say you are done. Then be done. If you will not listen to the truth then continue on with your false beliefs. I hope that most people know better then to fall for Preterism and that they can see how ludicrus it is. Maybe someday you will open your eyes.
This may be my final post on this thread, though not neccesarily. If I find it useful to do so, I will post again. I refer readers back to my previous posts #27, 36, 41, 57, and 62.
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unto this day. {9} And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
