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Yes... but if the kingdom of God is within you... and God has been "establishing His kingdom" within the hearts of His saints throughout history... then I see no conflict or problem... Christ said... Abraham looked forward to see my day... And he saw it and was glad. Just something for you to ponder. I don't believe I can prove a "metaphorical" interpretation... but if I have time and can find support, I will post some reasons that I believe like this. If you look at Paul's allegorical interpretation of Genesis in Galatians... you will see he didn't prove it was an allegory nor do I think he could prove it. Not that I'm at all like Paul of course... but I'm saying that not everything can be proved. Ultimately it is Christ, not hermeneutics and technique, who reveals the true meaning of scripture.
I completely agree with you...and this is what is important. Christ taught and revealed the true way to salvation...of that I AM 100% CERTAIN
Yes... but if the kingdom of God is within you... and God has been "establishing His kingdom" within the hearts of His saints throughout history... then I see no conflict or problem... Christ said... Abraham looked forward to see my day... And he saw it and was glad. Just something for you to ponder. I don't believe I can prove a "metaphorical" interpretation... but if I have time and can find support, I will post some reasons that I believe like this. If you look at Paul's allegorical interpretation of Genesis in Galatians... you will see he didn't prove it was an allegory nor do I think he could prove it. Not that I'm at all like Paul of course... but I'm saying that not everything can be proved. Ultimately it is Christ, not hermeneutics and technique, who reveals the true meaning of scripture.
This is actually the key...because his Kingdom was not of this earthly world..and the Jews were expecting an earthly ruler at that time. This does help quite a bit.
Of course, we do eventually have the 1,000 year reign. But why only a thousand years? Only God knows!!
I would agree with this. If you look back to the passage from Malachi I referenced (in the first post on this thread)...it is most certainly describing the Day of the Lord as an armageddon reference.
You are taking a scripture out of context -- Malachi is about Israel and how they have been unfaithful to God, they have not kept his commandments and they day of the Lord is going to come to them if they do not repent
Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Mal 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
Mal 1:7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 1:12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
Mal 1:13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
Mal 2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
Mal 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
Mal 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
Mal 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
Mal 3:15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
I agree with Thy kingdom come --- in the bible there is both physical prophecy and fulfillment God calls Israel, they are disobedient, they are judged in 70AD - and also metaphorical --- The problems I see happening is mixing physical and spiritual together .....The kingdom is now within us, there is flesh and spirit within all people
Yes... but if the kingdom of God is within you... and God has been "establishing His kingdom" within the hearts of His saints throughout history... then I see no conflict or problem... Christ said... Abraham looked forward to see my day... And he saw it and was glad. Just something for you to ponder. I don't believe I can prove a "metaphorical" interpretation... but if I have time and can find support, I will post some reasons that I believe like this. If you look at Paul's allegorical interpretation of Genesis in Galatians... you will see he didn't prove it was an allegory nor do I think he could prove it. Not that I'm at all like Paul of course... but I'm saying that not everything can be proved. Ultimately it is Christ, not hermeneutics and technique, who reveals the true meaning of scripture.
But my question now, is do the scriptures regarding the establishing of the kingdom refer very specifically to the end of all sin and evil on earth, or just the beginning of the establishing of the "inner kingdom." I will have to examine all of the OT scriptures about it.
You are taking a scripture out of context -- Malachi is about Israel and how they have been unfaithful to God, they have not kept his commandments and they day of the Lord is going to come to them if they do not repent
Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Mal 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
Mal 1:7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 1:12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
Mal 1:13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
Mal 2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
Mal 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
Mal 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
Mal 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
Mal 3:15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
I agree with Thy kingdom come --- in the bible there is both physical prophecy and fulfillment God calls Israel, they are disobedient, they are judged in 70AD - and also metaphorical --- The problems I see happening is mixing physical and spiritual together .....The kingdom is now within us, there is flesh and spirit within all people
Well ALL of the OT scriptures were about Israel for that matter. That is my point exactly...is that the DAy of the Lord was about Israel..and not the rest of the world. That is the way it was originally intended to be meant.
I accept your explanation. Metaphors are wonderful ways to communicate to the spirit...and we know that what was happening between God and his people Isreal is a microcosm of the macrocosm of what was to come for the rest of the world.
In Luke 19:42-44....Jesus wept over Jerusalem......``If you had known even you, at least things which belong to your peace!....but now they are hid from your eyes....For the days will come on you, that your enemies will cast a trench around , and keep you in on every side... And will lay you even with the ground, and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone on another, because you know not the time of your visitation``............ See the day of the Lord comes and people do not even have a clue that it is now .....ususally the day of the Lord is during a time of great apostasy when the church of the Lord is disappearing and will be lost if Jesus do not move....So the Lord will move no question.......
In Luke 19:42-44....Jesus wept over Jerusalem......``If you had known even you, at least things which belong to your peace!....but now they are hid from your eyes....For the days will come on you, that your enemies will cast a trench around , and keep you in on every side... And will lay you even with the ground, and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone on another, because you know not the time of your visitation``............ See the day of the Lord comes and people do not even have a clue that it is now .....ususally the day of the Lord is during a time of great apostasy when the church of the Lord is disappearing and will be lost if Jesus do not move....So the Lord will move no question.......
This is the day of the Lord,"The Great and terrible day."But you need to remember that Jesus Said "Elijah is indeed coming and He will restore everything".
So Elijah is coming before Jesus.But He also said the Advocate the Spirit of truth is coming.He said; "When he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
I've come to restore everything and I'm taking from what belongs to Jesus and declaring it to you.This is what is coming."To me every knee shall bend, by me every tongue shall swear;says the Lord."
My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Lord's hand. The Lord and I are one.
If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me;
but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, put faith in the works, so that you may realize that the Lord is in me and I am in the Lord.
I am the resurrection and the life; anyone who believes in me, even though he died, he will come to life, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
Whoever serves me must follow me, where I am, there will my servant be. The Lord will honor whoever serves me. I am the light of the world. No one who follows me will ever walk in darkness, cause he will possess the light of life. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
Once you have the light, keep faith in the light, and you will become a child of light.
Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me,
and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me.
I came into the world as its light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in the dark.
If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words he already has his judge namely the words I‘ve spoken that’s what will condemn him on the last day,
because I did not speak on my own, but the Lord who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.
And since I know that his commandment means eternal life. What I say is spoken just as he instructed me.
Jesus sent me we are ONE. I came down from Heaven to do His will.
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Lord except through me.
If you know me, then you will also know my Father
Whoever has seen me has seen the Lord.
Do you not believe that I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Lord who lives in me is doing his works.
14:11Believe me that I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
Truly I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do.
Zepheniah 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
That has always been one of my favorite scriptures about being hid in the day of the Lord. Hid in Christ, no doubt. It seems tied to the scripture that states that the fear of the Lord is clean:
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether. 10They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb. 11Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
In keeping them there is great reward. 12Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. 13Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins;
Let them not rule over me;
Then I will be blameless,
And I shall be acquitted of great transgression. 14Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.
This is the day of the Lord,"The Great and terrible day."But you need to remember that Jesus Said "Elijah is indeed coming and He will restore everything".
So Elijah is coming before Jesus.But He also said the Advocate the Spirit of truth is coming.He said; "When he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
I've come to restore everything and I'm taking from what belongs to Jesus and declaring it to you.This is what is coming."To me every knee shall bend, by me every tongue shall swear;says the Lord."
My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Lord's hand. The Lord and I are one.
If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me;
but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, put faith in the works, so that you may realize that the Lord is in me and I am in the Lord.
I am the resurrection and the life; anyone who believes in me, even though he died, he will come to life, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
Whoever serves me must follow me, where I am, there will my servant be. The Lord will honor whoever serves me. I am the light of the world. No one who follows me will ever walk in darkness, cause he will possess the light of life. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
Once you have the light, keep faith in the light, and you will become a child of light.
Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me,
and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me.
I came into the world as its light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in the dark.
If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words he already has his judge namely the words I‘ve spoken that’s what will condemn him on the last day,
because I did not speak on my own, but the Lord who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.
And since I know that his commandment means eternal life. What I say is spoken just as he instructed me.
Jesus sent me we are ONE. I came down from Heaven to do His will.
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Lord except through me.
If you know me, then you will also know my Father
Whoever has seen me has seen the Lord.
Do you not believe that I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Lord who lives in me is doing his works.
14:11Believe me that I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
Truly I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do.
This is all wonderful. I love the words of Yashua, and I have followed him for many years.
I think you are misunderstanding my purpose..and thinking that I challenge Yashua's teachings by starting this thread. As I stated before, I have a Jewish father who does not accept Christ, and the Elijah aspect is central in many ways to their rejection of him...because they feel how it happened does not fit their scriptures.
So quoting Yashua will not settle the matter exactly. I am one of his sheep and I follow him.
So let's try to stay focused...and if you feel you are able to help, maybe you can address (by number) each of the specific questions, so that it stays organized...and it will be easier for me to relate it to my Dad.
1) The disciples knew that Christ was expecting the Day of the Lord (the end) very soon, otherwise they never would have asked "teacher, why do the scriptures say that Elijah must come first?" (before the great and terrible day of the lord, with all its destruction, as outlined in Malachi).
Christ says "if you will accept it, this is the Elijah which was to come" but then also says "Elijah WILL COME and restores all things." So it seems we have two Elijah returns here.
a) John the Baptist
b) The future Elijah...being one of the two witnesses (theoretically)
THE ANSWER that I was given in this thread (and I'd have to go search to give proper credit, which I will soon) that made the most sense about why the END of the world didn't come at that time, though Jesus had everyone believing it was going to (hence the reason for the Elijah question from the Jews to the disciples) is that I shouldn't try to interpret it all literally, but that it was only literal for Israel (regarding 70AD).
The fact that Jesus says "if you will accept it" shows that he is aware that it doesn't quite line up with the prophecy.
2) The problem also, is that the future Elijah does not restore all things either, according to Revelation. The two witnesses (if one of them is even Elijah) are hated by much of the world after they come, and though they challenge the beast, they are eventually killed by him.
So how and when, according to scripture, is this Elijah that Jesus says is still to come...finally appear? Where in the scriptures would it be, if it were not one of the two witnesses? And Malachi doesn't say that TWO prophets will come before the day of the lord...but only one.
The real messiah is supposed to be the one who restores all things, according to the Jews..which is why they still consider the future return of Elijah to be their Messiah.
3) The problem with John denying he was Elijah is handled by accepting that John came only "in the spirit and power of Elijah." This is actually fine...but the problem here is that:
Elijah worked miracles...but John the baptist never did.
So it's not even possible that John even came "in the spirit and power of"
Elijah.
Saying that he obviously was..and then quoting all the powerful words of Christ to prove it won't do (As wonderful as that is), because it still doesn't fit the prophecy. Trust me...I love the words of Christ, so that isn't the problem.
This is the ways the Jews look at it. How to help a Jew around this?
4) The original prophecy also could have said that another prophet entirely was to come, if that was going to be the case. It didn't have to say Elijah himself was coming. The personalities of Elijah and John are also quite different, and we have Christ claiming John was Elijah, and at the same time saying that Elijah is still to come, to restore all things, which John the Baptist didn't. It has been said that John pointed to the Lord Jesus Christ, but by denying he was Elijah (and didn't even say that he had indeed come in the spirit of Elijah) he in effect denied Christ position, when he could have reinforced it.
5) This is on another topic slightly...but it is interesting that both Christ (Greek) and Messiah (Hebrew) both mean the same thing,...which is "anointed" and not savior.
There are two more anointed ones to come...according to Revelation. This means two more messiahs. Do you know who they are? They are "The two anointed ones" as they are known in the scriptures...or The Two Witnesses.
Here is my understanding
- The day of the LORD is a day in which God judges you, likened to fire, oven, burning, etc.
- It is not a singular day in the history of mankind
- Rather it occurs on an individual basis and can come at any time
- It comes as a thief in the night, when you are not expecting
- Elijah (or John the Baptist) shows that God will give you warning to repent
- It's not a fun day at all, it's a day of gloom, mourning, deep regret
- You can avoid that day by repenting and obeying Christ, but I'm not sure that even one person does this
- Or you can go through that day and reap what you have sown
- If that day comes upon you, you will eventually escape, after many or few stripes
The reason people have trouble with "this generation" etc. is that they are looking for a singular day in physical history, either in the past (like preterists) or in the future (futurists). But I don't believe it is a singular day in history. Rather it is a day that occurs in an individuals life. So it was true. Many of "this generation" did in fact experience that day.
I think this may be the only real way to get around these problems in the scriptures.
Also..I neglected to acknowledge that you did deal with the Matthw part adequately...according to this method of interpretation.
However...if we go completely metaphorically with all this...then why expect Christ to literally "come on the clouds?"
And if we go metaphorical with all this...then how do we know that the actual power of God is going to literally take care of the wicked...especially when they are so close to controlling absolutely everything on the earth..and in many ways, already do?
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