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I believe that "foreordination" would be a better word than "predestination." Most dictionaries list the words as synonyms, but there is a subtle difference between them. I would be more comfortable with the word "foreordination" because it implies that a person was chosen (or ordained) beforehand to fill a certain role, but it still allows for that person to make the choice as to whether to actually do what he was foreordained to do. I see the prophets and apostles whose lives are described in the Bible as being foreordained to the roles they held in God's work, and I believe God chose them before their births. I believe, however, that He chose them because He knew their character, and that it was in their character to be faithful to Him. Ultimately, they chose to be faithful to Him; they were not forced to do so. Predestination really does eliminate free will, and that goes against everything I believe. I simply cannot believe that a God who is no respecter of persons would predestine some to be saved and others to be damned.
Rom 8:28 But we know that to the ones loving God all things work together for good, to those being called according to purpose;
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:29 ForG3754 whomG3739 he did foreknow,G4267 he alsoG2532 did predestinateG4309 to be conformed toG4832 theG3588 imageG1504 of hisG848 Son,G5207 that heG846 might beG1511 the firstbornG4416 amongG1722 manyG4183 brethren.G80 Rom 8:30 MoreoverG1161 whomG3739 he did predestinate,G4309 themG5128 he alsoG2532 called:G2564 andG2532 whomG3739 he called,G2564 themG5128 he alsoG2532 justified:G1344 andG1161 whomG3739 he justified,G1344 themG5128 he alsoG2532 glorified.G1392
G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.
G4253
πρό
pro
pro
A primary preposition; "fore", that is, in front of, prior (figuratively superior) to. In compounds it retains the same significations: - above, ago, before, or ever. In compounds it retains the same significations.
G3724
ορίζω
horizō
hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.
G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).
G1097
γινώσκω
ginōskō
ghin-oce'-ko
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know" (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.
καλέω
kaleō
kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753; to "call" (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise): - bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).
G2753
κελεύω
keleuō
kel-yoo'-o
From a primary word κέλλω kellō (to urge on); "hail"; to incite by word, that is, order: - bid, (at, give) command (-ment).
Katzpur, thanks for your patience and excellent explanation of what you believe, and "feel" about it.
Now, if you will track with me here a bit longer. Ezekiel 38 and 39 has done more than given me pause, in this context.
Free will? God is no respecter of persons, is that biblical? Sorry, I think it is and yet am doubting it at the moment.
In those two chapters of Ezekiel, God clearly states that He is going to force an allied army to attack Israel. It, translasted is very blunt, saying that God said He is going to "put a hook in the jaw" of this people and "bring them" towards Israel, where He will then help them to destroy this allied group of haters.
If God will force this huge Army of humans, why not the rest of us? (BTW, this is not a test or anything. Just know that I am sincerely going this road with you. It's one I took myself on and the conclusion I came to was that yes, Predestination is quite a surprise. We are either slaves of God, or of the horned fella, sort of thing, I personally believe.)
Election is a very difficult issue to understand. I've spent almost 20 years on it, off and on, and I still struggle with it to some degree.
Some of you will not like what I have to say, but here it goes. God loves all and invites all to come to him to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ. However, because he is born in his sinful condition, he cannot come to God through his free will. In fact, the term free will is not even in the Bible. Conversion happens because of God's activity. See Ephesians 2:1-9 for this. The HOly Spirit must give people a new birth so that they can be born again, or born from above. John 1:13. Predestination is reveal to us, I believe, so that we can be confident that God fully intends to save His people, so much so that from the foundation of the world he arranged for them to be converted. But Predestination, IMHO, is not a promise of ultimate salvation. All Christians can lose their faith. See the many warnings against falling away. Heb 4:4-6 and Heb 11:26 1 Corinthians 10 are just some of the few. Therefore Predestination is God's work to bring us to faith. God also works to preserve us in faith and help us grow in faith, but some do resist and reject God along the way. (Parable of the Sower) But God does not elect all people to be saved. Many are the called, few are the chosen (elect0 said Jesus. There are other texts concerning this. Note also Romans 9;
Ro 9:15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Ro 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Note to Katie: See this is your "free will and man's chosing going out the window)
Ro 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Ro 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Ro 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
Ro 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Ro 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Ro 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
See, it gets confusing. Keep studying and the HOly Spirit may one day make it clear to you all.
Now you need to spend another 20 years on 'Perserverence of The Saints'...
You either allow yourself to be conformed to the Image of Hawyaw or the Image of Humanism...
We were born in the "image of humanism", and that was not our choice nor our will to be so (Rom 8:20). To say that we were born innocent defies what scripture says about us - the best we can offer is as a monthly cloth - and no one can make themselves into the image of God.
That being said, we will all agree that this is a dance and God wants a partner; but at what point will His will be defeated by us?
What His soul desires, that He does. (Job 23)
Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth. (Psa 135:6)
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established. (Pro 19)
For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back? (Isa 14)
"My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure" (Isa 46)
Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals, and brings out a weapon for its work; and I have created the destroyer to ruin. No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper. (Isa 54)
(Notice that He is the one who comes against the flesh; we so often rebuke and struggle against powers of "darkness", when it has come to burn away the old man.)
And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What hast Thou done." (Dan 4)
We can go on and on - the point is that the origin of our faith is Him, the ability to carry it out is His, and our destination is Him. Got busy at work...
Last edited by little elmer; 11-09-2011 at 11:08 AM..
We were born in the "image of humanism", and that was not our choice nor our will to be so (Rom 8:20). To say that we were born innocent defies what scripture says about us - the best we can offer is as a monthly cloth - and no one can make themselves into the image of God.
That being said, we will all agree that this is a dance and God wants a partner; but at what point will His will be defeated by us?
What His soul desires, that He does. (Job 23)
Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth. (Psa 135:6)
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established. (Pro 19)
For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back? (Isa 14)
"My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure" (Isa 46)
Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals, and brings out a weapon for its work; and I have created the destroyer to ruin. No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper. (Isa 54)
(Notice that He is the one who comes against the flesh; we so often rebuke and struggle against powers of "darkness", when it has come to burn away the old man.)
And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What hast Thou done." (Dan 4)
We can go on and on - the point is that the origin of our faith is Him, the ability to carry it out is His, and our destination is Him. Got busy at work...
Are you disagreeing with me because you misunderstand what I said or are you just jumping off what I said?...
If you use logic and reason you will be able to tell...Do not rely on others to tell you...You will only get confused...However, be prepared to discover things that might not fit with your personality and this is where 'the rubber meets the road'...You either allow yourself to be conformed to the Image of Hawyaw or the Image of Humanism...
Divest of individuality and, or responsibility?
(Then, perhaps, you will attempt to answer this question)
How exactly does it happen that normal human beings, all endowed with that of a conscience, having an awareness of individual responsibility for their judgments and choices,
manage to justify in their own eyes the most inhuman atrocities and acts of self-righteousness without running into intolerable cognitive dissonance within their own supreme
values?
(Then, perhaps, you will attempt to answer this question)
How exactly does it happen that normal human beings, all endowed with that of a conscience, having an awareness of individual responsibility for their judgments and choices, manage to justify in their own eyes the most inhuman atrocities and acts of self-righteousness without running into intolerable cognitive dissonance within their own supreme values?
Man is not as evil as he can be, neither is he as good as he can be...
If you use logic and reason you will be able to tell...Do not rely on others to tell you...You will only get confused...However, be prepared to discover things that might not fit with your personality and this is where 'the rubber meets the road'...You either allow yourself to be conformed to the Image of Hawyaw or the Image of Humanism...
***37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ Matt 25
Did you notice they did not consciously know, they just did it because that is who they are.
What Christ is doing in man is done unconsciously,we begin to think differently and as we think differently we become and do what we think we are.
This is why we are encouraged to look unto Jesus, because as we look continually to him(not a Jewish man with a beard), the life that He is, we become.
This is why I maintain that we should not be telling an individual or the world what dirty rotten sinners they are. We have not been commissioned to do this, we have been commissioned to tell the world God loves it and is not holding its sin against it, it s this we should pointing them to, and not their sin.
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