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I have read this thread and have a couple of thoughts. First off Katie, do you have children? If so, you would see their sinful nature from a young age. They can be rebellious, selfish, demanding, and tempermental. These alone qualify as a sinful nature, and there is no doubt in my mind that if these children could rip off anothers head to get what they want,,they would. I know we would like to think they wouldnt, cause they are so, so precious,,but really give it some thought.
I agree with Mike, that their sinful nature is bought by Christ, and where they knew not the Law, the Law is not imputed upon them. Romans 2 clarifies this. Paul even said he was once 'alive' apart from the Law, but when the Law came, sin was manifested, and he was dead.
It says in Romans that those without the Law, will be judged by the law God has written on their hearts. That settles that for those who have not had sound gospel preaching. God alone assumes 100% responsibility for this, and we have to let Him have it. Right?
But for the rest of us who are walking in Light, let me ask a question.
You want a fair trial at judgement,, or do you want Mercy?
I appreciate your opinion and your tone. Thank you for not being condescending.
I do disagree with you though for the reasons stated in my post to Mike. As for judgement, we will be judged by OUR DEEDS, not by someone else's. If we are in Christ, the only deeds we will be judged by will be our good ones. Our sins will have been washed away. But we will all stand before God and give an account for our deeds (Rom. 2:6).
Before all you geniuses throw out the doctrine of Original Sin, you should consider that for 1500 years of Church history, the doctrine stood, is still held by most of the worlds Christians, upheld all through the early period of the church, which was full of excellent Godly Christians like Ireneus, St. Augustine, Leo Bishop of Rome. Its was also confirmed by the large Protestant churches of the Reformation, Martin Luther and his friends, Calvin and the Reformed. It is also contained in the 39 articles of the Church of England. All these also baptized infants because they knew the child would be saved by washing with water through the word.
I appreciate your opinion and your tone. Thank you for not being condescending.
I do disagree with you though for the reasons stated in my post to Mike. As for judgement, we will be judged by OUR DEEDS, not by someone else's. If we are in Christ, the only deeds we will be judged by will be our good ones. Our sins will have been washed away. But we will all stand before God and give an account for our deeds (Rom. 2:6).
Katie
Question for ya))
Do you have children? I have 4 and I have seen on multiple accounts, their sinful nature. Of course, mines sinful nature isnt as bad as some kids...I had to throw that in there as most parents say this..lol.
Because those babies died before reaching a point where they could understand the issue involved in salvation and would be held responsible for making a volitional decision about the Messiah, they were automatically saved.
And once again, in the absence of directly being addressed in Scripture, it is a matter of understanding that God is Perfectly fair. Since He requires a volitional choice to receive Christ as Savior, He cannot in fairness and justice send into the lake of fire those who never were ABLE to make a volitional choice in the first place. A person could live to an old age but because he never had the mental faculty to understand the issue or even to be able to conceive of the concept of God, he is therefore automatically saved. The issue in eternal salvation is your volition. If your volition cannot come into play then it would be unfair and unjust for God to sentence you to eternity in the lake of fire. God cannot be unfair to anyone.
A synonym for the word "fair" is just. The Bible clearly tells us God is just, therefore, He is fair. For Twin to say God isn't fair is to also say He isn't just, and we know this can't be. Twin's argument is not a valid one.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is the supposed proof text to show that we are born with sin. But if one examines it closely, it does not say that Adam's sin was passed on. To claim that it does is a gross misrepresentation of what the scripture says.
1. SIN entered the WORLD through Adam since he was the first to sin. No one sinned before him. He, Adam, introduced sin.
2. Spiritual death spread to all men because all men (not babies) sin. SPIRITUAL DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men and why? Because all have sinned. There you have the reason! Not because Adam sinned, but because WE ALL sin. This verse DOES NOT say that sin was passed on to all men.
3. The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death.
4. Physical death is not the result of our sin. If it were, none of us would live past our youth, or beyond when we know right from wrong. Physical death was decreed when Adam sinned.
Katie
Dear Katie, Romans 5:12 does not say "spiritual death" passed through into all mankind. It just says "death." The Bible never mentions "spiritual death." Adam did not die a spiritual death the day he sinned. It was a physical DYing process: "to die shall you be dying" God told him. And God showed Adam what that process meant when Adam was told he will have to work till he return to the soil.
It is that same dying that was passed through into all mankind.
Due to death operating in all mankind, all sin. That's Paul's point.
Before all you geniuses throw out the doctrine of Original Sin, you should consider that for 1500 years of Church history, the doctrine stood, is still held by most of the worlds Christians, upheld all through the early period of the church, which was full of excellent Godly Christians like Ireneus, St. Augustine, Leo Bishop of Rome. Its was also confirmed by the large Protestant churches of the Reformation, Martin Luther and his friends, Calvin and the Reformed. It is also contained in the 39 articles of the Church of England. All these also baptized infants because they knew the child would be saved by washing with water through the word.
If the early church is to be more biblical they would have taught "original death." It was death that passed through into all mankind (Romans 5:12), not sin.
Before all you geniuses throw out the doctrine of Original Sin, you should consider that for 1500 years of Church history, the doctrine stood, is still held by most of the worlds Christians, upheld all through the early period of the church, which was full of excellent Godly Christians like Ireneus, St. Augustine, Leo Bishop of Rome. Its was also confirmed by the large Protestant churches of the Reformation, Martin Luther and his friends, Calvin and the Reformed. It is also contained in the 39 articles of the Church of England. All these also baptized infants because they knew the child would be saved by washing with water through the word.
So...because men throughout the ages have held onto an ignorant delusional beliefs...we should ALL believe it??????????
[LEFT]"No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities." - Christian Nestell Bovee [/LEFT]
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is the supposed proof text to show that we are born with sin. But if one examines it closely, it does not say that Adam's sin was passed on. To claim that it does is a gross misrepresentation of what the scripture says.
1. SIN entered the WORLD through Adam since he was the first to sin. No one sinned before him. He, Adam, introduced sin.
2. Spiritual death spread to all men because all men (not babies) sin. SPIRITUAL DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men and why? Because all have sinned. There you have the reason! Not because Adam sinned, but because WE ALL sin. This verse DOES NOT say that sin was passed on to all men.
3. The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death.
4. Physical death is not the result of our sin. If it were, none of us would live past our youth, or beyond when we know right from wrong. Physical death was decreed when Adam sinned.
Katie
In the spirit of consistancy on what grounds do you exclude babies? I do not see the actual scriptures say they are excluded, if you say people misrepresent verses, try not to do so yourself.
I have read this thread and have a couple of thoughts. First off Katie, do you have children? If so, you would see their sinful nature from a young age. They can be rebellious, selfish, demanding, and tempermental. These alone qualify as a sinful nature, and there is no doubt in my mind that if these children could rip off anothers head to get what they want,,they would. I know we would like to think they wouldnt, cause they are so, so precious,,but really give it some thought.
I agree with Mike, that their sinful nature is bought by Christ, and where they knew not the Law, the Law is not imputed upon them. Romans 2 clarifies this. Paul even said he was once 'alive' apart from the Law, but when the Law came, sin was manifested, and he was dead.
It says in Romans that those without the Law, will be judged by the law God has written on their hearts. That settles that for those who have not had sound gospel preaching. God alone assumes 100% responsibility for this, and we have to let Him have it. Right?
But for the rest of us who are walking in Light, let me ask a question.
You want a fair trial at judgement,, or do you want Mercy?
I did not say that anyones old sin nature is brought by Christ. The old sin nature is genetically transmitted through the male via the sperm. This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin birth. At the moment of physical birth God imputes Adam's original sin to the genetically transmitted old sin nature which results in spiritual death. Therefore a persom is born physically alive but spiritually dead.
I did not say that anyones old sin nature is brought by Christ. The old sin nature is genetically transmitted through the male via the sperm. This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin birth. At the moment of physical birth God imputes Adam's original sin to the genetically transmitted old sin nature which results in spiritual death. Therefore a persom is born physically alive but spiritually dead.
Mike, the only thing transmitted is death. "death passed through into all mankind" (Romans 5:12).
Neither sin or the "old sin nature" or "spiritual death" was transmitted. If you are going to talk about any "nature" as it relates to mankind it would be best to say "dying nature."
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