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The child experiences rumblings in its tummy and then the pains of hunger set in followed by cries for something to be done. Then mommy magically appears and baby is nursed. All is well. That is love.
But if the child did not feel the hunger, would it feel the need or reason for the feeding?
Likewise when baby falls over backwards and hits it head. Mommy appears to wipe away the tears.
Granted the evils in these examples are fairly minimal, but they illustrate the contrast of hunger/fed or pain/comfort.
Exactly my point. God intended us to know through experience the difference between all the things that have contrasts. Otherwise, the history of the world and all of time and the ages is unnecessary.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
In any event, the idea is that God did not command His people (Judah) to do such a sin, or partake in anyway of such sinful acts (murder of infants to pagan gods). And such an idea as that, or to command Judah to do such abominable acts, had never entered God's heart or mind. That is what the text is saying.
However, that text does not say God did not know what sins were taking place in the valley of Hinnom.
Of course He knew He seen them doing it. And if it never entered into His mind that they did this, is it not obvious that then doing this evil did not come from God? that it was not some grand design of Gods in order for man to understand evil?
Exactly my point. God intended us to know through experience the difference between all the things that have contrasts. Otherwise, the history of the world and all of time and the ages is unnecessary.
Same question I asked Lego sis, please take the time to think about it
Do you purposely hurt your loved ones?(and I am not talking about a spanking, I am talking about murdering them, raping them, etc) If not why do you believe the one who is love would purposely hurt us?
Of course He knew He seen them doing it. And if it never entered into His mind that they did this, is it not obvious that then doing this evil did not come from God? that it was not some grand design of Gods in order for man to understand evil?
Sin does not "come" from God. That would make God the author of sin. Sin is simply the transgression of the law. And those laws, which make sinful acts sin, are also established by God.
However, God rules over sin and those who commit such acts of sin (as well as evil, which is not sin BTW) through He's providence and determinate counsel.
And I think this is still the distinction many here are as yet unable to grasp.
Anyway, I don't really want to debate this subject. I left off at page 18 or so, I'm back at page 43 (excuse me, it's now page 44 ?!?) and it still seems to be rather contentious....
Amen, pneuma . . . this is too important to leave in the tiny font you used. Lego and others believe the ancient ignorant interpretations and superstitious understanding of God found in the OT. There is no reasoning with such unreasoning credulity and acceptance of ignorance as a sign of faith.
Mystic, it is not just the OT. The NT references Pharaoh being hardened for example in Romans 9. This is NEW testament.
But regardless, I could care less what the scriptures say when you look at the facts.
If one creates something, KNOWING full well what will happen, with FULL power to do otherwise, and STILL goes ahead with it, then that shows intention and purpose. How can anyone conclude otherwise?
Sin does not "come" from God. That would make God the author of sin. Sin is simply the transgression of the law. And those laws, which make sinful acts sin, are also established by God.
However, God rules over sin and those who commit such acts of sin (as well as evil, which is not sin BTW) through He's providence and determinate counsel.
And I think this is still the distinction many here are as yet unable to grasp.
Anyway, I don't really want to debate this subject. I left off at page 18 or so, I'm back at page 43 (excuse me, it's now page 44 ?!?) and it still seems to be rather contentious....
I agree with part of this storm, but I don't think anyone is being contentious, we are all just putting things out the way we see them and of course the differences can seem to look contentious.
Mystic, it is not just the OT. The NT references Pharaoh being hardened for example in Romans 9. This is NEW testament.
But regardless, I could care less what the scriptures say when you look at the facts.
If one creates something, KNOWING full well what will happen, with FULL power to do otherwise, and STILL goes ahead with it, then that shows intention and purpose. How can anyone conclude otherwise?
::Sigh:: You insist on ignoring or diminishing the existence of another WILL in the sequence. GOD GAVE US A SEPARATE WILL TO CHOOSE GOOD OR EVIL KNOWING WE WOULD NEED TO MATURE TO ACHIEVE IT. A seed bears no fruit . . . and that barrenness of fruit can have evil consequences. But that does NOT mean the seed is INTENDED TO NOT bear fruit and incur those consequences!!!
And that is where I see double speak. God does NOT want evil to happen, but has a purpose for it. It makes no sense, for if God has a purpose for evil things to happen then God wants evil things to happen.
You don't understand. I don't want to rip my muscles and cause great pain to myself. But that is what exercise is. Yet I still exercise because I want to be healthy and grow stronger.
The purpose of constructing a tower is not to build scaffolding. No one "wants" to build scaffolding. They want to build a tower. The scaffolding is not the purpose. The tower is.
::Sigh:: You insist on ignoring or diminishing the existence of another WILL in the sequence. GOD GAVE US A SEPARATE WILL TO CHOOSE GOOD OR EVIL KNOWING WE WOULD NEED TO MATURE TO ACHIEVE IT. A seed bears no fruit . . . and that barrenness of fruit can have evil consequences. But that does NOT mean the seed is INTENDED TO NOT bear fruit and incur those consequences!!!
Mystic I am not ignoring our will. But our will is nothing compared to God's. Surely you can acknowledge that.
Let me ask you this:
- Is it God's will that we become mature spiritual beings?
- Is it possible to become mature without overcoming some kind of evil?
If so, then we must conclude that evil was intended, as I have said all along, necessary so we could be built into what we must become - so we could learn goodness and love.
An understanding of evil is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in order to understand love. Disagree?
I agree with part of this storm, but I don't think anyone is being contentious, we are all just putting things out the way we see them and of course the differences can seem to look contentious.
Anyway that how I see it
God bless
Alright my friend, blessings from God to you also...
Give Pink's: Sovereignty of God (see pdf link in a previous post) for a look. Let me know your thoughts on it. I read the book when I was quite young, 17 or so, and thought Pink had a rather engaging way of presenting the subject, but haven't really thought much more about it.
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